The Lax House Bust - Parent Report
posted by Scott Engler
This was sent to us by an Alum who was in touch with the parents who had contacted the school for help. The words, viewpoints and research are his, but we thought this account was important for all to read.
They hoped the school would stand up for these kids and their poor treatment, but instead were told that the kids "got what they deserved." One of these parents was told by a South Bend official that if this had happened to non-students, there would have been a lawsuit and people would have been fired at very high levels in the South Bend government. But because they were students, no one cares and no one wants to mess with Notre Dame.
I know there have been some rumors as to how the police handled the situation, but this is coming directly from a letter sent to the school. I post this here because I'm not sure what to do with the information or if people already have seen it. Here's part of the letter:
As you know a gathering took place at the residence of several women athletes on Saturday night, September 20, 2008. The gathering was both quiet and contained. There had been no complaints about the gathering from anyone including neighbors. Apparently an Indiana SUDS task force, in conjunction with the South Bend police department, were enroute from one of their pre-determined “target” drinking establishments to another “target”, when one of the members “observed what appeared to be several underage people drinking” inside the house. Based solely on that observation, the task force apparently made a decision to conduct what was a full fledged “raid” on the house in which the gathering was taking place. After surrounding the house with at least 12 police cars and, without a warrant, permission of any other form or justification, members of the police and task force proceeded to violently burst into the residence. Statements taken from the students who leased the premises have made it clear that none of them granted permission for the police to enter their residence.
The assault by the police on the premises was significant and excessive. Several students witnessed the raid from outside the residence. One gave the following account of the police assault on the premises: “At least 12 police cars with dogs swarmed the house. It was like a SWAT raid you might see in a drug movie. I could not believe what I was witnessing!”
The questionable legality and propriety of the “raid” by the police and task force was only compounded by their outrageous and aggressive behavior towards the male and female students once they were inside the premises. The behavior of the assaulting officers, once inside the premises has been corroborated by the separate and consistent accounts provided to us by (the students).
Once in the house, the police:
• Broke bedroom and other doors with crow bars
• Pulled sleeping female students from their beds
• Refused request by one female student to change out of her pajamas or even to put on slippers
• Forced the hands of students behind their backs and handcuffed all of the 37 students they later transported down to the station.
• Made demands that all students take breathalyzer tests (again, without any probable cause)
• Physically roughed up students who refused to take the test without some probable cause.
• Refused to allow one female student to cover her exposed breast while she was handcuffed
• Taunted and jeered at the students, using profanity in the exercise of their authority.
• Cheered when they identified newsworthy and recognizable students
• And more……
Once the handcuffed students were taken to the station, the improper and legally questionable conduct of the police continued. They:
• Demanded breathalyzer tests of those who had previously refused to take such a test on advice of their counsel
• Failed to read any of the students their constitutional Miranda Rights.
• Refused “at least 20 politely worded request to use the restroom” and told the students that they had to “wet your pants.”
Those who followed their instructions were publicly ridiculed and jeered at by the officers present for doing so.
The conduct and actions of the South Bend police were not only improper and outrageous, but they clearly violated the constitutional rights of the students and student athletes involved. Based on this questionable conduct and lack of probable cause it is unlikely that any judge or prosecutor will allow any of this tainted evidence to see the light of day in any legal proceeding. The South Bend police did not hesitate to issue a press release at 3:53 AM that same morning listing the names of all the young men and women who were the victims of their illegal raid. The fact of the release and the timing of this release call into question the motives of the police.
They hoped the school would stand up for these kids and their poor treatment, but instead were told that the kids "got what they deserved." One of these parents was told by a South Bend official that if this had happened to non-students, there would have been a lawsuit and people would have been fired at very high levels in the South Bend government. But because they were students, no one cares and no one wants to mess with Notre Dame.
I know there have been some rumors as to how the police handled the situation, but this is coming directly from a letter sent to the school. I post this here because I'm not sure what to do with the information or if people already have seen it. Here's part of the letter:
As you know a gathering took place at the residence of several women athletes on Saturday night, September 20, 2008. The gathering was both quiet and contained. There had been no complaints about the gathering from anyone including neighbors. Apparently an Indiana SUDS task force, in conjunction with the South Bend police department, were enroute from one of their pre-determined “target” drinking establishments to another “target”, when one of the members “observed what appeared to be several underage people drinking” inside the house. Based solely on that observation, the task force apparently made a decision to conduct what was a full fledged “raid” on the house in which the gathering was taking place. After surrounding the house with at least 12 police cars and, without a warrant, permission of any other form or justification, members of the police and task force proceeded to violently burst into the residence. Statements taken from the students who leased the premises have made it clear that none of them granted permission for the police to enter their residence.
The assault by the police on the premises was significant and excessive. Several students witnessed the raid from outside the residence. One gave the following account of the police assault on the premises: “At least 12 police cars with dogs swarmed the house. It was like a SWAT raid you might see in a drug movie. I could not believe what I was witnessing!”
The questionable legality and propriety of the “raid” by the police and task force was only compounded by their outrageous and aggressive behavior towards the male and female students once they were inside the premises. The behavior of the assaulting officers, once inside the premises has been corroborated by the separate and consistent accounts provided to us by (the students).
Once in the house, the police:
• Broke bedroom and other doors with crow bars
• Pulled sleeping female students from their beds
• Refused request by one female student to change out of her pajamas or even to put on slippers
• Forced the hands of students behind their backs and handcuffed all of the 37 students they later transported down to the station.
• Made demands that all students take breathalyzer tests (again, without any probable cause)
• Physically roughed up students who refused to take the test without some probable cause.
• Refused to allow one female student to cover her exposed breast while she was handcuffed
• Taunted and jeered at the students, using profanity in the exercise of their authority.
• Cheered when they identified newsworthy and recognizable students
• And more……
Once the handcuffed students were taken to the station, the improper and legally questionable conduct of the police continued. They:
• Demanded breathalyzer tests of those who had previously refused to take such a test on advice of their counsel
• Failed to read any of the students their constitutional Miranda Rights.
• Refused “at least 20 politely worded request to use the restroom” and told the students that they had to “wet your pants.”
Those who followed their instructions were publicly ridiculed and jeered at by the officers present for doing so.
The conduct and actions of the South Bend police were not only improper and outrageous, but they clearly violated the constitutional rights of the students and student athletes involved. Based on this questionable conduct and lack of probable cause it is unlikely that any judge or prosecutor will allow any of this tainted evidence to see the light of day in any legal proceeding. The South Bend police did not hesitate to issue a press release at 3:53 AM that same morning listing the names of all the young men and women who were the victims of their illegal raid. The fact of the release and the timing of this release call into question the motives of the police.
96 Comments:
WOW. That is all I can say. This is absolutely rediculous and borderline (if not completely) criminal. The SB police should be reprimanded and held accountable for these unspeakable actions. How can anyone think this type of treatment is acceptable?
I don't understand ....."But because they were students, no one cares and no one wants to mess with Notre Dame."
Why would any attorney be afraid of big bad ND? Sounds like there is a real case of abuse here, what about ACLU or if they don't want to take it how about UCLA?
Notre Dame should not get involved as this would be out of their sphere of jurisdiction. These 37 should be contacting their own lawyers and bringing civil rights lawsuits against SBPolice.
Whether they are students or not is immaterial, take individual legal action against the City of SB, Police dept.
Also, contacting State Senators,State Reps, and even the Governor could prove very beneficial. The last to expect help is from UND.
Sounds exactly like alot ot the police officers in SB. I don't doubt one word of it. Not one. Sad that these people's main function is to serve and protect this community and ensure the safety and well being of these individuals. Nice. Anyone from SB nows how things are. It is absolutely ridiculous, but I doubt it ever changes.
Meanwhile, there have been 8 shootings in South Bend in the last week.
i understand that these are all horrible occurrences. but that no one is taking any legal action is surprising to me. lets be honest, the $ is there to hire the needed attorneys.
I was roughed up by the South Bend Cops when I was a student there. I was drunk, but I didn't deserve what I got. Cops can do whatever they want, we are not free. Hopefully with more prevalence of video cams on phones etc. it will lead to less of this in the future
A couple of law observations/comments:
Warrants are not required if the cop observed the illegal activity from a location where a warrant was not required... under the "plain sight rule". That being said - I don't know if looking into the windows, and observing a number of people that may be drinking and "may" be underage rises to such a level that the cop could avoid getting a search warrant.
Also - Miranda rights do not have to be read at all when the cop is not looking to question/interrogate the individual. Without reading the rights, what was said between the arrested individuals and the cops can run the risk of not being admissable. It is common for the arresting officer not to read the rights, but have a subsequent interrogating officer read the rights at the station prior to an interrogation (if one was necessary).
Every parent of an applicant should be alerted as to what could happen to their son or daughter in this community. First, their own college will not be their advocate and second the town is unsafe. No way in he_ _ I would ever put my kid at risk and send them there. There are lots of good schools in this country. That place is dangerous.
Yet they are the first ones to preach brotherhood and forgiveness. Yet they won't stand up for their own students after charging them huge amounts of cash to go there? Go figure. What a bunch of hypocrites. What is going on at Notre Dame and who are the ones responsible for all of this?
Hey parents, step up to the plate and get a lawyer. Stand up for your rights and protect your kids. Nobody else will.
What a rotten shame that this is happening.
I have also seen similar behavior from SBPD and Excise Police when they burst into my apartment at Turtle Creek during a very quiet and tame Kegs n Eggs gathering. They're cause to enter, not granted by me or my roommates, was hard to argue as they were chasing a kid who ran into the apartment after they saw the cops coming at them and demanding they show ID. The police certainly took advantage of the situation, using clearly excessive force on all the kids who tried to run.
I also have a female friend who was arrested for drunk in public on another occasion. At the station, she was stripped down and sexually harassed and taunted by female members of the SBPD.
Nothing they do surprises me anymore. Those that have been taken advantage of absolutely should take action to exonerate themselves and to discourage this type of power abuse. It's almost understandable that Notre Dame refuses to get involved ... but their denial of any wrong-doing clearly demonstrates that the "family" concept proclaimed by ND is a bunch of BS. I'm surprised that these students didn't receive an extra dose of punishment from Reslife ... or did they?
Oh yes, they were res lifed as well. That is an endorsement of what the SB Police did. I am amazed that parents tolerate this.
Well, as we all know, donations from alums et al will be much leaner, not to mention the students that are there now. From what I hear, they and their fellow students won't be giving a red cent to this university. There you go. Because of a few swelled egos, a great university like this is on a slippery slope.
Can anybody answer me - who is responsible for speaking for Notre Dame? Who is responsible for all the ill will? Who should be held accountable? AND WILL ANYTHING BE DONE ABOUT IT?
www.therealnotredame.com
Isn't there an Attorney willing to take this on for the students. They don't need to University approval to protect themselves against unlawful activities.
You all have missed the point. Not only did the State of Indiana Excise Police conduct themselves out of the law, Notre Dame quietly supports this. That is the shame of it all!
I don't think anyone missed that point. The point is, who is going to call the SB police on this and who is going to call the big shots at Notre Dame on this for not supporting their students? Is anyone going to step up to the plate and target those who are accountable, those very few who will spoil the reputation of a very fine academic institution? Those who are responsible must be held accountable for the greater good of the whole. Why should the reputation of the institution, the alumni, and its students be compromised because of the unwise decisions of a few? Where are the attorneys who will volunteer their services?
I was at the 94 Lafayette Square St. Pats day party that was busted as well. One theme I've noticed about these overzealous busts is the use of the dogs.
It would be interesting to see if records about use of the SB canine units is available under Freedom of information act. It would be quite telling if the use of the canine squads seemed to be disproportionately directed at the ND student gatherings.
More telling, however, is that no one at ND seems to have the cajones to just tell SBPD that it is ridiculous to bring out canine patrols to bust parties that are not dangerous and never have been dangerous.
Unfortunate - but nothing new for the scum in South Bend surrounding the beautiful campus. They are jealous of every fortunate person who is a part from student to sub-alum and can't contain themselves. These kids were in the wrong pace at the wrong time and were unlucky. Sucks - but it is the truth. ND can't "do anything" about something like this.
i was at this party and i can personally verify everything in the article
great rave! If you want to drink under age go to Florida,FSU,Ala.,etc. If you want to spend your parents money and get a great education go to Notre Dame.
Breaking into a private home with dogs and crowbars to arrest underage drinkers? Are you kidding me? A little over the top, don't you think? You mention Florida, FSU, and Alabama? Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it. Just think about where they rank in football. Okay. Maybe it's an unfair comparison, but take a great football prospect who's an okay student. Knowing what goes on at Notre Dame, where do you think the kid is goimg to go to school? Sure, he'd probably get a better education at Notre Dame. But wait........he might wind up with a criminal record along the way!
Underage drinking.....imagine an underage college kid drinking a beer......imagine that!I guess there's just no hope for such egregiously immoral behavior.
What the SB police really need to do is concentrate on the crack whores and thieves residing in and around the campus and clean up those neighborhoods so that students arent living next door to some criminal, some real criminal. Sounds to me that the police are the ones who are jealous of the ND education!
Michael, there's a quidditch broom with your name on it sitting somewhere else. Why don't you go try not to get it jammed up your brownie hole.
This abuse by the cops is atrocious, and amounts to sexual assault in a few of the cases.
What's worse is the administration bending over and taking it from the town. This is the same town that allowed the KKK to demonstrate in such a manner that the students of Notre Dame took to the streets to protect themselves where the police couldn't/wouldn't do so lo those many years ago.
Stay strong Fighting Irish, and remember what makes our school such a special place (hint: it's not the PoorKirk hegemony).
I have personally heard several different accounts from both students and cops involved in the incident, and there are different facts presented by both. I do not know what happened, but allways take such accounts with caution - from both sides. Just because everyone does it doesn't make it right - and that applies to both sides where indisctretion is concerned. The truth, I fear, lies somewhere in the middle with some blame to go around. No excuses for bad cops and no excuses for law breaking persons. two wrongs do not render one of the wrongs right.
This is really sad. I have two daughters at ND and have heard similar accounts of treatment off campus by the SBPD. I have also watched in disbelief as these same officers of the law (remember "To serve and protect") storm into tailgates at ND home games and bust students for drinking with their parents. I understand it is illegal to drink if you are underage and this should not be encouraged but good grief is any one shocked that college kids away from home do these things. Unfortunately we as a society have created a culture that glorifies drinking and makes it a "forbidden fruit" for our underage kids. Europeans and many other cultures who do not glorify drinking and keep in a social familial context do not have the same problems we do here in the US. Is it fair to ask a young man or women to potentially give up their life for their country at 18 to allow them to vote but not allow them to make their own decision as to an otherwise legal pasttime? The ND family needs to stand up for these kids and not let them be treated in this way. We should not encourage or in any away support breaking the law but we as an ND family do need to not only revolt against such behavior by law enforcement but defend the rights of our students.
There is one an ONLY one way this will change. We as alumni must withhold our donations. Furthermore, the ACLU would be very interested in these clear civil rights violations. A law suit against St Joe county, South Bend and the state of Indiana needs to be filed.
I am not a lawyer. However, we cannot allow this hypocrisy continue. ND claims to "Fight" for the voiceless, environment, unborn, etc etc. How can they be taken seriously when they violate the civil rights of their very own students! Thanks, SIHagedorn@yahoo.com
I am a 3rd generation ND grad. Always happily supported the school.
No more. My son is going to the University of Illinois next year. My connection with ND is over.
There are others who feel the same way. But tell me, what do you do if you are already trapped in the system? "If we had to do it over." I hear that so often. From what I see, this whole thing has been hushed-up rather than corrected. What has been done by Notre Dame to help all those students who have been treated so terribly since that first football game? Ths is a Notre Dame issue. Instead of offering assistance,it rubs salt in the wounds. But nothing changes. Nothing has been done. I see no correction for all those that were so unjustly treated. I guess those students will eventually become alumni. It'll be interesting to track donations from this group of students. Don't hold your breath.
Maybe this group can help.
www.therealnotredame.com
I don't know enough about the situation -- from both sides -- to make an educated determination as to the extent of "who is at fault for what." My question is this: what would it look like for the University to "support" the students in question? Exonerate them completely for illegal (if relatively inconsequential) behavior? Demand reparations from SBPD? We need some clarity on what we're demanding.
Also -- those of you upset, withholding donations, etc. -- make sure you write letters to the administration. As much as I like this blog, I don't assume that high-ups in the Dome are reading your comments. Make your complaints official and on paper!
I was once running back to campus with a sign I had stolen. And a cop saw me and yelled, "Put it back!"
She didn't have to yell at me.
one thing thats important to note that deviates from the letter: none of the charges were dropped and every one of them has been to court. There was high hope that the charges were to be dropped because of the questionable tactics used by the police, but that didnt seem to matter.
What is the old saying? "There is nothing new under the sun." South Bend police have been pulling this crap for decades. I graduated in 1990. I lived in a house on Crescent Street which has since been torn down. Some of the alums and SB residents may remember it as the house with the crane in the yard across from an Italian restaurant called Sunny Italy (if I remember correctly). Anyway, one night we were having a party. Everyone was in the house and parked off the street in our lot. We were not disturbing the neighborhood (Kevins nightclub was just a couple of doors down the street and we regularly heard shootings while we were cooking out on the porch - it was hopping the night of our party. Plus there were two crack houses on the other side of us, so it was impossible to be disruptive in that neighborhood). Nevertheless, 14 cop cars and a paddywagon showed up to break up the party (including cops from Roseland) and they arrested a few of us, including me (even though I was 22 at the time). When they were marching me up the street I asked the cop why they brought the whole force to break up a party and inquired where they were earlier in the day when crack deals were going down and people were smoking pot in plain sight. He just said "shut the hell up!" They kept us in for most of the night even though people arrived at the station to bail us out before we even got there in the cop cars. They just wanted to screw with us. It made them feel big. I'm sure it is no different today. Some cops are good and some are dirtbags. It is no different than any other profession, except they have guns and badges...
As someone in Law Enforcement for the last 30 years and who currently has a daughter that will graduate next year I can offer the following..... Take it for what its worth.
1. No matter what school, what city this stuff occurs, why is this ND's problem. I teach my kid to be responsible, do not get yourself in situations that you have no way out of and everything has consequencies. When dealing with the police keep you mouth shut. You cannot/will not win. Fair or not its the truth. Dad told me this many years ago cops want you off the corner get moving.
2. I live/ work in Philly come to a place where it trully is rough and ready on a good night. I sleep well at night knowing she is at ND. A walk thru Penn's campus and surrounding community is some real fun... good luck. Trust me the campus Police at Penn and Philly PD are not looking to bust beer parties they have lots of other problems to deal with.
3.Lets see...Go bust the humps of college kids and get on the arrest sheets for this or do a drug bust with the potential to get hurt... you do the math.... This is a matter that relates directly to the supervision of the squads involved. 2-3 personnel could have accomplished the same thing and deployed the other units to what most certainly is bigger fish and more pressing matters. ie fugitve arrest, drug houses etc. Unfortunately there are many Officers who think that when they put on a badge and carry a gun they are above the everyday citizen. Job like this you go tell them to knock it off, pour out the beer and tell them if we have to come back your getting locked up. Any loud mouths,fighters etc go the first time.
4. Sad part of this is that it is just another thing that someone will use to drag down ND, because without ND there is no South Bend, Roseland,etc.
Just my opinion... GO IRISH
The problem I have with ND is that they not only turn a blind eye (i.e., silently condone) to the egregious use of force by SUDS, SB Police et al., but they exact their own pound of flesh against the students, because obviously underage drinkers need to be taught a lesson.
For those that say that ND can't do anything or shouldn't, I say bullshit. First, ND makes it clear from the moment you step on campus that you are a part of the ND family. Yet a family member does not/would not sit idly by when one of its own is being harassed and borderline tortured (being told to wet themselves, handcuffs, crowbars etc.). I expect ND to fully stand up for its family members, and to use its resources to fight any injustices (see their marketing campaign)that are being done to their family.
Second, for those that say they can't do anything, I think you greatly underestimate the resources it has at its disposal. How can an organization with billions of dollars, and many significant ties to powerful corporate and political figures not have the ability to work the necessary channels to stop or at least curb this ridiculous and excessive use of force? This is not some impotent, mom and pop shop in South Bend/Northern Indiana.
The question then is if ND can apply political and economic pressure for change, why isn't ND asking questions and demanding better for its students and alumni (family). Why is no one demanding a meeting with SUDS/Excise to find out what went on or to lay out better policies re enforcement?
The answer, quite simply, is that no one at the top wants to lift a finger because it would cause some short-term strife. The status quo is much easier and less painful, and no one to stick their neck out.
I also think the admin thinks that these students are getting what they deserve for breaking the law. My guess is that these Judge Smails of the world also think it's great that Saudi's cut off people's hands for stealing ( or so goes the legend). But once again, I don't think this is how you treat your family, especially those that make a small mistake like drinking beer inside a house.
I expect better from ND. I expect ND to be like Father Miceli was to us boys at Cavanaugh, tough but protecting of his flock. I don't expect them to sell us out because they lack the balls to fight. And quite frankly, that is what I see.
forget this. send this to the trib or something. as a student here its clear the only thing the university cares about is their image. its too bad that its come to this but we should start taking measures to publicly embarrass the administration
Who is responsible for letting the SB police on campus to do the gestapo routine at the tailgates and in the stadium? WHo gave those ushers instructions to bust anyone they da-ned well pleased? Did they have a right to impose themselves upon Notre Dame territory or were they invited? And by whom?
Hmmmmmmmm??
From the first I heard about this entire issue of over-zealous and abusive law enforcement directed at Notre dame fans/family, and the University's apparently clear complicity with it (the on-campus harrassment during tailgating, included), I've felt numb with disbelief, that these things could happen at the one institution in this country (save for family and the church)I hold in a position of respect and love above all others. The on-going nature of these reports lends an undeniable air of validity. Reading this letter brought me to a place I never could have imagined I'd find myself; abandoning the place that has meant so much for so long, as a relic of my past; a place that is no longer, and would likely never again be, what it was. I thought to thank God that my daughter was already out of there, and that her two pre-school sisters will never set foot there while I draw breath. I thought once again what a shame it was that my ring had been stolen all those years ago; but now, not because I want to have and wear it, but rather because I can't return it as a sign of my disgust at the way this administration treats and abandons its family members. I remembered the graduation exercises I attended this past May, and the flowery speeches given by priests, invited guests, awardees, and by Martin Sheen, and how the whole weekend made me regret that I'd not returned for those ceremonies since I'd graduated 35 years ago. Now those events of May seem hollow and false, perhaps nothing more than an example of what's often referred to on other sites as the "Disneyification" of Notre dame. Yet, it's just not a place I can give up on. There must be a way to effect chage in this situation, and it's going to take more than sitting idly by and hoping for it to happen. This is so fundamentally much more important than any football game/player/season/fan hope. I'm not a lawyer, and I've never been involved in instigating social change, but if ever there were a time, it is now. It is time that we as members of the Notre Dame family come together for the good of our family to change this. Can NDNation serve as a place to begin organizing people for this? To approach the administration in such a fashion as might be effective? To serve as an on-going repository of experiences suffered, of names of those willing and eager to lend support, whether $$, letters, phone calls, e-mails, etc? How do we get this started?
South Bend police violating the basic rights of Notre Dame students is old news folks. In my two years living off-campus I saw countless students arrested for underage drinking. Houses were ticketed for noise violations. My car was stolen. The cops knew who was stealing the car, but refused to arrest him because he was under 18. For obvious reasons, they wouldn't tell me who it was. The car had been wrecked before it was abandoned and was stolen again from the garage where it was being fixed. Again no arrest. No support from the SBPD. Our house was broken into three times. Never an arrest. Once during the 1990 Michigan game someone robbed three houses on our block. No investigation, no arrest, no support. The University has clearly made no effective effort in the last 15 years to keep students safe off-campus. No one believes that with the financial wherewithal of the school it couldn't be improved. The answer has been to build more dorm rooms at donors expense. Why must you be on-campus to be safe at Notre Dame? How sad.
These students and parents are liars. My son was at the house and had fortunately left with a few friends right before the "raid". He told me what he saw.The students were drunk off their arses at this well known party house. Granted it is unusual for underage drinkers to be arrested but maybe it is about time since alcohol is so out of control at Notre Dame...and so is marijuana from what I am told (the football players need to stop smoking it since it shows in their performance). It is not healthy and Notre Dame needs to clean up the alcohol and drugs in the dorms since it is rampant. The dorms should not be a "safe haven" which then later students take these attitudes off campus. My other son attends a different college and alcohol is restricted a lot more there than at ND. It is time ND address this decades old problem especially after several alcohol related student deaths. Perhaps the excise police should raid the dorms if ND is unwilling to do so...just leave the dogs and cuffs in the squad car. The responsibility begins as freshman in the dorms and that is also where the safe haven drinking begins. Time to clean it up ND.
Are you kidding me? "Rampant" drug use and alcohol? You, my friend, must live under a rock. I am a freshman at Notre Dame and have visited friends at a number of other schools (Miami of Ohio, Dayton, Villanova, Vanderbilt, Furman to name a few) and Notre Dame is NOTHING compared to other colleges.
When students do drink (underclassman Fri/Sat, upper and grad students include Thursday) it is more often then not light beers spread out over longer periods of time. When we're lugging kegs into rooms at other dorms for 10 people and getting two or three 30s here for 20 people, I find it hard to say that ND has any kind of significant problem.
You will never be able to stop college kids from drinking. I understand it's Notre Dame and it's very conservative and they are upfront about this and some of the alumni can be uptight and self-rigtheous (for instance, getting chastised by alums for saying "screw Michigan" and "this is crap"), you will NEVER stop kids who work their asses off all week long from partying on weekends. We are college kids and we will drink.
Lastly, the drug use thing is ridiculous. I know over 100 kids here and can count on one hand how many people smoke. Whereas I go to Boulder Colorado and am in a minority of about 5% because I don't light up.
Hahahaha I know kids who are seriously considering transferring from Notre Dame because the weekends are so tame. They probably won't because it would be retarded to exchange 3 years of fun for a lifetime of rewards but the premise that ND needs to be cleaned up or is out of control is laughable.
ND is certainly tame. In my 5 years there (architecture), I knew approximately 6 or so people that smoked. And I mean pot. I knew NO ONE that did anything else, whereas my husband (a large state school alum) expected coke, etc to be a part of the weekend within all groups he knew. Rampant drug use at ND does not exist- sorry.
Oh, sure. Clean it up -- like that is really going to happen. Like Yeatman's father said, where do you expect these kids to be on Saturday night -- the grotto?
Get real. Drinking is out there and has been out there for years all over the country. Clean it up on campus? Yeah, maybe the gestapo police should break into private rooms there too. You have no idea how attitudes like that hurt this university. Time to get real and let the kids have their drinks. Escort them home if they've tipped too many and contact the parents.
I have a question. Is the excise police invited by Notre Dame or are they entitled to come onto the campus?
Please stop the "see no evil..." stuff. This is a time of life of experimenting. I'd rather see them get it out of their systems now and slowly settle down for good instead of waking up at 35 realizing all the things they missed, whacking out not only themselves but their families. From what I have seen, these kids are pretty tame. I don't see any drug abuse or sexual abuse. Golly gee, I guess they should be drinking Hi-C at their parties. Unreal.
The bigger picture you are all missing is this is taking place everywhere throughout the county. I live in college town, it happens all the time and it's not just college students. Why do you think the younger people don't have respect for police anymore. They fear the police more than criminals. We have a problem in society with police misconduct today and everyone is afraid to do anything about it. Look at all the misconduct in the Chicago police department. Pick a city, LA. We need to stop living in a vacuum? I'm starting to think we got to may thugs (police) with guns and they don't know or care if you a bad or good guy. If government would get out of the morality business, maybe we could get back to going after real violent criminals.
But, it all about the money. Municipalities got budgets and police are usually the largest expense. They need money.... And who is easy prey and who got the money? Well, guess what, it's you! It's the middle class, you don't shoot back.
Think I'm cynical? For those who want to defend the police I would say, just so I got this right; the SUDS just happened to be driving by; and at night they could see these people were underage; and they could see in the window as they were driving by there was underage drinking taking place; so.... they sent the swat team to break down doors; had cuff a women with expose breast; forced them to urinate in their pants; forced them to take breathalyzer test; used profanity and laughed at them for who they were. ALL FOR HAVING A BEER.
Maybe its time we revisit this law of 21 years of age. Low alcohol beer 3.2 percent for those 18 years and up worked well in may states before the feds pulled the plug. If it stops the insanity, I'm for it. This is not an isolated incident.
i find it disheartening to see authority figures turn a blind eye to officers acting irresponsibly. they are human and thus make mistakes, but ultimately they are doing their job when this kind of topic comes up.
my problem with the situation is that the officers failed to be professional in the same way the students failed to obey the law. both acts are regularly given the blind eye treatment. if they wanted to bust the party the officers should do so by the book and not abuse their power. it's simply unnecessary.
i see a double standard in behavior here between officers and citizens. these double standards foster the kind of angst SB citizens are feeling toward police right now.
I don't know. I'm torn. On the one hand, I would like to think that the University would support my child since they are away from home. On the other hand, most students (if not all) are technically "adults" and part of the learning experience is dealing with your own mistakes even when they result in grossly unfair actions. Life isn't always fair. The most proper avenue for complaint is not through the University, but through the channels of public governance and legal representation. Now, if this occurred ON campus my response would most likely be much different
Fact - a vast number of football players smoke pot. Tons of underage football players get drunk after football games too (they shouldn't when they lose at least! LOL). I don't smoke pot but several of my friends do and I have been there when football players smoke pot. It is true and I could start naming names if you want. The really said thing is they smoke pot DURING the football season all the time...and I mean they smoke a lot! This is no joke, I have seen it, smelled it, etc. Pull your head out of your behind people... You guys are CLUELESS and are in DENIAL if you don't think STARTING football players aren't smoking pot!
my daughter and I agonized over her college decision; ND vs UVa. It was a terrible week as she made her decision in favor of UVa. I felt like i had just let the golden ring slip thru my fingers. Thank god she is attending Uva. Thank god.
You people have no clue what goes on with the football players. Follow them after a home game and see for yourselves. Most get absolutely hammered. And do you want to hear about the lingerie party at Dublin Village? SMC chicks and a lot of ND chicks too are so desperate and will accept being treated like trash. Just send them on up to the third floor bedrooms for a good bj or quickie then kick them out. The alcohol (no surprise, but is pretty excessive), the pot, and the sex would change your perspective about ND football players and the TV image they have to perform to. It is all an unrealistic image portrayed on TV now. Weis says he doesn't recruit "thugs" (white or black) but let me tell they live the rappers life style. Where do they get the money for the SUV's they drive? The football players that live off-campus are living in some pretty expensive new places. Just swing by Dublin Village and check out who is all there. ND football is no longer anything special and the football players are just like any other school. I have seen it with my own two eyes and while I love the school I hate the hypocrisy and the direction ND has headed... ND, Inc., not the ND family.
I'v already told ND I will not be sending in the $1,500 for the Sorin Society this year. Giving it to my local parish that will put it to better use.
Here is what I am proposing. A lot of students got hit with some pretty stiff fines. Some have attorneys boills. Not all these kids were born with silver spoons in their mouths. Some of them are scratching their behinds trying to figure out how to pay them. I know that donations have been diverted to Hannah and Friends and I think that's great. BUT might it be possible for someone to start a fund for these kids?
Maybe they could be interviewed individually to tell their stories. Maybe they could get some assistance with their bills? Maybe someone could lead the way to showing these kids who have been so badly burned just what the place, our school, is really all about or SHOULD be all about. Let's show them how Notre Dame people really stick together. How can we help these kids out?
Hannah and Friends? Get real, Weis has plenty of money and if he wants an acreage for his daughter to play on then he can pay for it himself. And as far as setting up a NFP so your kid can have friends to play with too I hope you see through that and donate to a crisis pregnancy center or your parish instead. Come on, Hannah and Friends is not exactly the most needed charity around. Very lame.
I'm not sure what is more sickening--SBPD and ND's behavior; calling Hannah and Friends, a charity, lame; or the attacks on the ND football players in recent posts.
ND has always been a place where the students work hard and play hard. The SYR's, events like Dillon pep rally, etc. seemed to recognize this, allow for some fun in the midst of serious academic work. And yeah, being able to throw back a few beers in your dorm room while paying absurd tuition fees and working your arse off seemed at least a decent deal. The rules have changed, the fun has been pushed off campus, and now ND doesn't want to face the consequences they created. Who is at the root of changing the campus? Poorman? Jenkins? Seriously, who can we see as the root of this and who will be our means to a solution?
As for the thinly veiled statements on football players inproprieties, give me a break. They work hard and play hard, too, as did Gipp, Hornung, and plenty of Lou's finest players. Do we want thugs who sexually assault women and are drug addicts? Of course not. Do you expect angels who will merely talk to woman intelligent enough to be at ND or SMC that throw themselves at these players? (Yes, even some smart girls are stupid enough to be groupies) And then, while pot use is far from rampant at ND, do you expect all players to stay pot and alcohol free? Get real.
Still, to characterize this team as a bunch of pothead womanizer thugs is inaccurate, irresponsible, and downright disloyal. Does it fit for some? I'm sure, just as that label would have stuck for some players in the early 90's (and some non-football playing students, too). But that label certainly doesn't fit for all our athletes; to characterize the program as out of control is nonsense and goes away from the primary problem of the SBPD abuse of our students and ND's silent compliance.
Our history (football and otherwise) isn't all choirboys--ND used to understand that and try to allow a safe means for students to blow off steam, which was why being on campus was a privelege. Now, campus is becoming a bore and off-campus living a risk to well-being in so many ways. Throw in ever-increasing tuition, and I sometimes wonder why the typical middle-class Irish Catholic kid would even want to go to ND. I hope I'll still have some affirmative reasons when my kids are old enough to consider applying.
Jenkins, Poorman and Kirk should all be canned...or jailed. Why these self important jerks are allowed to stay around is beyond me.
Gee, the students were in a place they weren't supposed to be and doing something they weren't supposed to do (underage drinking). WHAT DID THEY EXPECT??
Sound like a bunch of spoiled rich kids who are astounded that the real world works this way. Invite them over to Iraq and throw them out in the street for their dessert. ND Class of 73
Nice going , Marc. You were the class of '73 and didn't see this place as nearly off the wall? Or are you really class of 73? Nice going also for wanting to throw them onto the streets of Iraq. Nice going.
I find the actions of the SBPD in throwing these students in jail and the failure of the ND Administration offensive. First, to those who have written "they were drinking, they deserve it" you are wrong. These are for the most part young students doing what they do. They have not committed a criminal act that justifies the arrest, throwing them in jail and subjecting them to denigration for the pleasure of (fill in your adjective-- sicko, angry, misguided) police.
I am writing because what I have read about the police/security/usher behavior at the games and the treatment of students effects me in so many ways. First, I graduated in 1975. I confess, I drank beer and alcohol in my dorm, in my off campus house, with my parents while tailgating and Schnapps in the stadium during cold November games. Never once did I worry about being arrested, thrown in the drunk tank, taken to jail or having to relieve myself in my pants. People who say that students caught with alcohol and not bothering others in the process deserves such treatment are wrong. Despite the alcohol "abuses" that I suffered as an ND student, I got good grades, became a lawyer, still go to church, volunteer to the community, have a family and I am still married to the girl that I met at one of these frowned upon parties in the dorm. In fact my friends have become lawyers, state administrators, dentists, educators etc. This does not describe a social environment that was broken or needed fixing.
Secondly, I am a parent of daughters. One of my daughters graduated from St. Mary's. If any police took the actions described against one of my girls I would be furious. When I was in school the University use the term "in loco parentis." If this in still in use, treatment of students like this constitutes the parents from Hell.
Thirdly, I'm a lawyer in Michigan that has had to help family and friends respond to cases where our children have been caught at drinking parties. At least in Michigan, the police going to such a party would have issued Appearance Tickets for being a Minor in Possession (an MIP). Minors get an MIP if they are carrying alcohol or if a breathalyzer shows alcohol consumption. The party is shut down, the MIP offenders have to appear in Court like a traffic offense and pay a fine. Its a nuisance, expensive and teaches a lesson. On first offenses minors can attend alcohol abuse classes and get the record cleared. This is punishment that fits the crime. Even if you remove the abuse and assume the students are being arrested by polite police, thrown in jail and having a permanent arrest record, the punishment does not fit the crime. We want our children to succeed, not have to answer yes on employment applications asking if they have been arrested. Again, if the drinkers are being unruly, abusive or creating a danger, arrest would be warranted.
Fourth, I attended ND with national championship football players. I didn't party with them, but saw them almost every day. I worked in the dining hall serving them dinner and in the football office with their coaches. Of course they partied as much as the rest of us. But seeing them after practice every day, I can say they worked hard and nobody looked drugged out or wasted. Just like today, they attended classes and graduated. I find the above comments about the football players offensive and unnecessary for this discussion. We are a Catholic institution, not Puritans.
Finally, Rock's post should not be used for smearing our ND students or athletes. It is to spread information and create discussion to end what has become an untenable situation and treatment of ND students and fans. I believe it is incumbent upon the ND Administration to take a stand and not allow our students and fans to become police targets.
Can someone pull the plug on this thread as it has turned in to just another way/attempt to run down ND and the students. Some of these comments are just plain BS. Probably posted by someone who either did not get accepted or whose kid did not get accepted period.
Does this stuff happen... yes, are there abusive police who go over the top... yes
Half the time after a game you see must of the players leaving the gug with their friends or family... there beat. do some go an party afterwards.... yes but to indicate that they are out having wild drugs and sex parties is BS.
In this day and age of video and UTube this would be everywhere
Give me a break.
Want to go/send your kid to a real part place think OHIO, PS WHO, or down in the SEC... hell don't even go to class.
Mark 75 - What kind of lawyer are you? You should advocate following the laws and if you disagree with them work to change them, not violate them. YOU HAVE NO CLUE what the current ND "hip hop" football players do. Live in the nicest off-campus digs, drive SUV's, smoke pot, and have a lot of sexual encounters in unhealthy ways. ND football is a sell out and the hypocrisy is sickening. If they want to pretend they are better than others, then walk the talk. Heck, football players don't even have to stand in line to buy books like the rest of the students, tutors fro every class if you wantd, heck you don't even REALLY have to write your own papers....just say yeah that sounds good and that's what I meant to your tutor. The whole thing is one big joke now and I am SICKENED by what ND has become. I refuse to donate any more to the ND "charity" until the entire admin is fired. All they do is provide photo ops for the football players to craft an unreal and false image. Let's do a photo op of the players leaving the bascillica and show it on NBC......meanwhile that night, drinking, drugs, sex, and money under the table (instead of under the dorm room door since they don't live on campus any more). The whole thing is a staged image now and the losses are s symptom of that. Just look at the players after a rare win, they almost look as if they don't know how to celebrate and don't really seem to have real emotion....they are looking "off stage" for direction on how to act. ND football is dead now that the ND football show has taken over. How did this happen??? Fire the entire admin now!
My friend you are high, let me guess you got turned down or you just hate ND.... right.
Do some have nice cars... yes, do some live off campus... yes, do some go to tutors for help with classes.... yes.
Over the last 4 years daughter has told me repeatily about the high profile players in her classes and labs, do some struggle and nned tutors yes..... In the end our graduation rates and success speaks for it self.
If only 5% of what you spout off about was true it would be on highlight reels for ESPN and every other hack who wants to run down ND.
BS pure BS
Take your hate for ND someplace else.
Kool Aid drinker.....I have several ND degrees and graduated at the top of my class so stop this pompous ND cult that we're better than others nonsense...that you must not have gotten accepted or aren't financially successful. Oh please, I could kick your arse in all of that in spades I'm sure but I don't go around degrading people if their opinions differ from my own. Fact, ND academic rankings have been stagnant or declining. ND is NOT one of the top schools...sorry Charlie, it is very good, not great.
MANY of the football players at ND simply don't belong on an academic basis and it is pretty hard to flunk out of ND once you're in....almost IMPOSSIBLE if you're a football player since they have staff devoted to your every academic need. I would venture to say that ANYONE who graduated from the top half of their high school class would graduate from ND with that kind of academic support.......actually the tutors pick up most the slack. I know students who are CURRENTLY tutors and they can tell you some good stories....but it is an easy job for them. ND puts on a good show now and can spout stats, but the realty behind the curtain is very sad indeed. My ND is no more.
Look, ANONYMOUS, you need to shut the fuck up with these charges unless you can provide some shred of evidence to back up what you're saying. Even if you're 100% correct (which I find ludicrous), making comments like these without any corroboration (i.e. news clippings, police reports) is just so much hot air.
By the way, the "multiple degrees" argment is the haven of the Internet troll.
Just make Notre Dame a dry campus and get it over with.....geesh.
I can give you a very concrete example that would be variable about a traffic stop this last fall where several ND athletes (two were football players and you know who you are out there) were riding (one was driving) in a car "flying high" that is smoking pot from a glass bong. They got caught but the cop took care of the matter right there and let them go. The pull over would be in the records.
...verifiable....
Kool Aid drinker here... regarding kicking someones "arse", no choir boy here son.
I'll be out there for the syracuse game, bring your lunch its going to be a long day if you want to still kick some arse. I'll be over by section E aound 2:00pm Look for the old gray haired guy I'll wear a t-shirt so you can find me with the following. Waiting for dip s#$%.
Again not a shread of proof or evidence. Fact is ND is a Top 20 school and if it was not for the peer rankings by those that cannot get past that a Catholic school can provide a top education that allows deverse opinions it would be rated higher it would be a top 10-15 institution.
Tale you BS over to the SEC sites were they routinely graduate 39-40% of their "students".
Old Fart said: "and if it was not for the peer rankings by those that cannot get past that a Catholic school can provide a top education that allows deverse opinions it would be rated higher it would be a top 10-15 institution."
Ha ha ha ha ha......too funny yet another excuse. From if we'd only caught that one pass, the ref was unfair, to now our academic rankings excuses. As a loyal ND man, I tell it like it is, not some fantasy cult follower here. The football team is terrible and the academics are bland.
Anonymous said:
" can give you a very concrete example that would be variable about a traffic stop this last fall where several ND athletes (two were football players and you know who you are out there) were riding (one was driving) in a car "flying high" that is smoking pot from a glass bong. They got caught but the cop took care of the matter right there and let them go. The pull over would be in the records."
Wow, a story in a comments string of a blog post that can't be immediately verifiable. I'm convinced. Maybe you can answer these questions:
1. Why would the cops "take care of the matter right there"? What you're describing is a felony offense. It strains credibility (that's being generous) that the officer would simply turn a blind eye, especially with well-documented evidence of SBPD units cracking down on student misbehavior.
2. How do you know about this? Were you in the car? Did you witness the players smoking up? Right now, all we've got your unsubstantiated story to go on.
3. It's fun to watch you deny reality, but in regards to ND's academics, the school remains in the top 20 nationally and has mutliple programs recognized nationally as best of breed (Medieval literature, undergraduate business).
I'm kind of bored with this conversation. Your suspect claims of academic mediocrity and player malfeasance are easily rebutted and I see no point in continuing to do so.
Enjoy being wrong.
Well Mike, it is true and I can name the date and time within about 2 hours. And it is NOT a felony it is a low level misdemeanor for the passengers and there was not any proof to the cop that the driver had been smoking, but he was. The cop made them dump it and let them go. I'll have to ask one of the guys that was in the car if the driver got a speeding ticket or not. The simple fact remains, a large number of ND football players smoke pot, even during the season. Sorry to burst your bubble Mike, but get with the real world here. Football players do get away with a lot of stuff in South Bend including getting into bars when underage....even with a cop at the door. Medieval Literature/Studies....what an absolute joke (I think Jenkins has a degree in that) ... seriously what is ND's competition in that?!?! Ha! The business school is OK with a good accounting program which anyone can learn from just buying the books anyway, it is just accounting, big whoop. ND is a good school, not a great school. What can I say, a large number of football players blaze up a lot....it is what it is. If they tested for it on Monday, half the team would probably test positive.
What you don't know is that Bill Kirk gives law enforcement information on off campus party places including off campus student residence records. Bill Kirk has to keep up appearances with the other police so that he can keep control of the NDSP, which is illegal. Read WNDU and WSBT archives on Notre Dame Police and what they do to cover up and protect the ND image. It all comes back to Bill Kirk and "Fr." Mark Poorman. Both should get the boot and have no trespass letters issued against them!
Whoever donated the money for the new security building should demand their money back!
I grew up in South Bend as a townee...then attended ND where I played varsity football. Here is the deal once and for all. SBPD and many others simply don't like ND students. Whether it is jeolously, resentment, et al, the fact is that they harbor this latent dislike for Domers. Yes, they can be fans of the FB team but that doesn't make them fans of the students. Many of the SBPD are not highly educated. Being a "cop" in South Bend is a status symbol. As such, these folks seize and use the power vested in them for whatever purpose makes them feel better. Not that it is an excuse but many of the ND students have displayed an arrogance and holier than thou attitude which has lodged indelibly in the psyche of many young people in South Bend...thus the resentment. Of course, none of this is an excuse for this bad showing of the SBPD but it is the reality of the situation...always has been and will always be in the future...just comes with the territory. Not dissimilarly, the students at Indiana U. in Bloomington disdainfully refer to the local yokels as Stonies. So it is pervasive everywhere. ND and SB are odd bedfellows and that is the way it is. It won't change no matter how much "good" the students do in the community with outreach programs, etc. As the saying goes, "it is what it is!"
Do us all a favor and fire Bill Kirk. That would be the smartest thing ND could do. Read up on therealnotredame.com.
I COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH THE LAST POST! FIRE BILL KIRK! FIRE BILL KIRK! FIRE BILL KIRK! HE HAS DONE MORE TO DESTROY THE ND FOOTBALL EXPERIENCE THAN ANYONE!!! FIRE BILL KIRK! FIRE BILL KIRK! FIRE BILL KIRK! FIRE BILL KIRK! FIRE BILL KIRK! FIRE BILL KIRK! FIRE BILL KIRK!
With all that has been posted, what resonates the most is that Notre Dame does not seem to be supporting their own students. This should gave never been an issue. This should have never happened. Who cuased it? With all the hollering, the question remains, who is at the source of this? This university cannot control South Bend but they can protect their students on the campus. Why did they not do this? Who is responsible?
Until all those involved are held accountable, the problems will remain and the university will suffer.
I agree, it is Bill Kirk. Fire Bill Kirk! The guy is a tool.
Assuming the events of this story actually happened . . . this is outrageous. For each woman of ND who was at this party, if you want to do something about this, consult a good plaintiff's lawyer. If you need a recommnedation, I turn to the ndnation. If we have anything, we have lots of alum-attorneys, including myself. However, I don't know the local firms in the Bend. At the same time, on the federal level, I would contact Congressman (Donnelly I think?) and your Senators. Also, any state represntatives. Now, by "contact" I mean annoy these people with letters and phone calls detailing what happened. If possible send en mass from each victim. It will get their attention.
Here's a quick rant . . .
For the administration of ND, I'm assuming you read these blogs from time to time (you should!) . . . overall, the ND Alums are upset. The onus is on you to use your power and influence to help protect ND students from (assuming) this kind of treatment. I think your general comfort blanket is "we are ND . . . but those who break the law deserve what they get." First off, they don't deserve the facts of this story. Second, they don't deserve double punishment by you Bill Kirk. Third, in future, if you want to either turn ND into a totally dry, southern baptist type atmosphere, this alum is not on board. Also, in future, if you want to turn us into a study-all-the-time, more expensive than Harvard/Yale, and trying to be as-Ivy as we can, this alum is not on board. We are ND. We are unique, we have (or at least did) have our cake and eat it to. We are football. We are academic excellence. We are some great spirited fans. We love our faith.
We hope to WANT to send our children there. This has been going on for a while. Right now, I don't know what I want. But i'm hopeful.
OK. This sounds like something which popped out of Zimbabwe or Pakistan, but recalling my days at ND, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the local authorities did all they were alleged to have done.
The way I look at it, either ND quietly condones and endorses such behaviour (a way for them to discipline "unruly kids"), and turns a blind eye to any abuse whatsoever at the hands of the SBPD or there's a local conspiracy to chase ND and its community away from the South Bend area altogether, which given the intense hatred that the locals harbor for ND, I can only think of the relationship between the taliban and NATO forces as a reference!
If its the latter, and ND is alarmed over such incidences, then I would suggest they use their legal, political and financial muscle to depose the local gestapo bosses and ensure a lawful and safe environment for all members of the ND community. IMHO, any of the two above is possible, and all I know is, I'll put off any notions of sending my kids to ND until they clean up this mess. Really, sexually abusing female ND students in custody?? If I am their parents, I'll file federal civil rights charges in a heartbeat!
You guys are all off base. It is all Bill Kirk behind the scenes. He runs essentially what is a religious version of the KGB with his abuse of police powers by a private religious organization...ND & NDSP. He/they keep secret files on people that never go away just like the KGB. Bill Kirk uses embarrassment, lies, and intimidation to silence critics. FINALLY this stuff is getting out thanks to NDnation and especially therealnotredame. Review the stories on therealnotredame and you'll see it is just he tip of the iceberg under Bill Kirk and his police powers gone wild. Review the scans to prove that Bill Kirk and NDSP keep the secret files forever. Why the heck can "security" run around with badges and vehicles that also says "police" on it? The "police" thing, instead of just "security" with a few sworn officers on staff is newer development. NDSP has four detective investigators on staff to investigate ANYTHING Bill Kirk tells them to investigate, no joke, ANYTHING including non-criminal matters under the color of law as police detectives. Throughout the top admin turmoil of the constant Exec-VP shuffle under Malloy, the underlings grabbed weird political power in the vacuum. Now there is a weak guy, Jenkins, in the top spot which has made things even worse. Poorman is a weirdo joke too and is part of the problem with Kirk. I personally believe that Bill Kirk has some sort of mental problem. He has to go. The state police powers were never supposed to be in private hands, especially the private hands of a religious organization. Just look at what Bill Kirk did to Chuck Hurley a few years back. I would never have believed it and the newspapers only tell part of the story. There is NO HOPE as long as Bill Kirk is allows to stay at Notre Dame, none whatsoever.
By the way, read the old South Bend Tribune articles on what Chuck Hurley had to say. NDSP is accountable to no one except the ND admin. Chuck Hurley pleased that Indiana State Police need to review police problems at ND but Bill Kirk and the admin reverted to it is prvate organization personnel matter. How can POLICE not be held to account by the public and the voters? When you can fire police officers and ruin their reputation (like Bill Kirk did to Chuck Hurley) you have a lot of control over the police. Last I looked, Bill Kirk wasn't elected by anyone...and he carries a secret badge as VP!?!?
I stopped donating to Notre Dame. I will reconsider my decision once they get rid of the Notre Dame corporate jet. It is beyond the pale for Notre Dame to have their hand out for charity at charity fundraising events when the brass arrived via their own private corporate jet. ND even has its own staff pilots.
SBPD is a bunch of miserable pigs. South Bend remains a drug infested cesspool, and these cowardly bullies continute to attack defenseless students. If the University (or someone) doesn;t stand up soon. there will be a violent incident...
Put Kirk the Jerk out of Work!
Please keep this article posted - this is a very important issue.
Hesburgh would not have watched this event or discourse unfold silently.
Sadly some hard life lessons were learned by those who were in the "wrong place at the wrong time." First they learned that if the Excise Police, with the support of ND Student Affairs, want to make examples out of the students for underage drinking, then a green light can be given to some pretty ugly behavior. Second they learned that the university can play naiive when the behavior of the police sinks to the level that it ultimately did.
At the Res Life meetings one of the ND university employees conducting the meeting acted skeptical that the police knew that kids at the Colfax Ave. home were ND students and that some of them were athletes. During this Res Life meeting one involved student told them that there was no question that they did because when the police broke through the door in the room that three students were in the officers called out, "Hey, which one of you is Clausen?..." And about intent of teaching kids that underage drinking is wrong, I agree that a citation, with a fine, coupled with required community service, would have taught the students more than being handcuffed, herded to the police station and have one officer taunt them and tell them that, "They might feel big right now but in the morning they would be f---ed when they read about themselves in the paper." Obviously this was a well organized sting operation that was malicious in its intent.
And when the Res Life official told the students that if they felt they were mistreated by the police that they should go to the student government and file a complaint with them, one of the involved student athletes astutely replied that this would be pointless since it was obvious that the police authorities had no respect for the Notre Dame students as evidenced by their treatment at the home and at the police station. In summary they felt powerless in this situation, and the university, their "de-facto" parents & family, were the only ones they felt that could speak for them. The reply they were given made them feel they were in essence "disowned."
I truly wish the kids could have walked away from this situation feeling that they learned something valuable, but instead this was such an unfortunate exposure to a very ugly picture of what can happen when people of authority do not act professionally, with respect, and compassion. And this goes for the police agencies AND the university. The students do not need exoneration; they need the university's support and protection from something of this nature occuring again. This calls for a university task force to meet with the Excise Police in particular to lay out parameters of what is appropriate policing of the ND student body and its alumns. And if the ND Student Affairs Office feels that the events that took place on this Lax Bust evening were appropriate, then the administration needs to look into an obvious divergence from the ND philosophy about how any person, not to mention a member of the ND family, could be allowed to be treated without any modicum of dignity.
I pray that those involved learned a glimmer of a lesson rather than became cynics about the police and ND Student Affairs that evening and the weeks that followed, but in my heart I feel that is not the case...
Nothing will improve until Bill Kirk is fired. He keeps dirt on a lot of people. Fire Bill Kirk Now! Stop donating until that cretin is gone.
All of this is breaking my heart. This is not the Notre Dame i knew and this negativism has seeped throughout the Notre Dame community --- all the way to the football players. Dorm events are cancelled ---- the Dillon pep rally is only one example. Clausen gets chastised for holding a red cup in his hands while no one knew what was even in it. Yeatman was removed from the team. What do you expect and what can we expect in the future with so much negativism? It hurts so to see the university itself turn in and turn their back on their very own students. Can this damage ever be repaired. Will the damage ever be repaired? Or will this group of students remember always how they were treated and betrayed? Father Hesburgh's Irish Blessing is on CD. His voice is kind and warm. His word: "Until we meet again, may God hold you in the palm of his hand." Somehow and ever so sadly, that does not resound when the present administration comes to mind. My heart breaks for Notre Dame. My heart breaks for its students. My greatest hope is that they will forgive and their trust and association with our Notre Dame will be restored. I am not hopeful. Will things ever be the same? My heart breaks.
Fire Kirk! He's a pig! I hope he gets cancer!
If America needed an enema, they would stick the hose in South Bend.
Students, call the South Bend Police Department and complain to Internal Affairs. Someone needs to get fired over this...
I was in S.Bend for the Pitt Game. The 11 pm Saturday news head line was; third murder of the week in S.Bend. I lost my mind as I had a kid arrested in this raid. This is how they spend taxpayer money? I hope all the residents feel safe from the big bad drinking kids from the university. The law enforcement is a disgrace and so is the DA's office! They had a chance to make it right and did not. Now they have 37 good American citizens who have no RESPECT for the legal system or the Nd administration for that matter. The parents asked for support from the school and were told they got what they deserved, they broke the law. I do not think for one moment that my kid is outside the law, ticket them and fine them, but do not violate them as a a human beings.
The following week after the raid 7/9 high school kids were busted for underage drinking and they were not arrested, they were issued tickets and their parents called. I ask why the ND students were arrested? I called the police department before the students were taken into custody and was informed by the Sargent; "We do not arrest students for underage drinking, we issue them an appearance ticket." I informed him tonight you are and he did not believe me! What is going on out there?
The administration is two faced; they lie to parents about zero tolerance when it comes to drinking,but allow dorm parties. I have witnessed two dorm parties that were out of control. I know that all the "powers to be" were aware. They all knew what was going on and it's ok as long as you do not get caught in a public setting and embarrass the school. If you do,they do not want to know you,until it's time for a donation
This is one Big dysfunctional "Irish Catholic Family" The administration needs to get their act together and the church wonders why they rank almost as low as President Bush!!!
Please, what can we do about this?
If what you say is true, there is something very strange going on. Why were students arrested if they claim they don't do that? This is not making sense. I know of students that were arrested in the stadium by South Bend Police as well. So now what?
You people need to wake up and see what has been going on at ND for years. It all come back to Bill Kirk. If you report a problem with NDSP...ND considers it a personnel matter, not a police matter. Did you not read what ND and Bill Kirk did to Chuck Hurley? It was outrageous. Did you know that Bill Kirk and ND use sworn officers, in plain clothes, to escort employees off the ND campus at the end of their employment? Good, long term employees that have done nothing wrong whatsoever but whose jobs are eliminated have NDSP plain clothes sworn officers show up out of the blue on their last day to make sure they don't take a stapler or something...unreal and humiliating. This is the POWER that Bill Kirk wields over people. He literally runs a KGB outfit under the color of law with no accountability. He has conspired to violate people's federal civil rights and I personally believe the guy should be prosecuted and put in a federal prison. I think he has a screw loose. There are a ton of more stories that will come out about NDSP and Bill Kirk if they are allowed to come out. Did you know that NDSP POLICE Detectives investigate du Lac violations.....not crimes, but just rules and regulations made by a private religious organization? Yes it is true I know of examples. POLICE DETECTIVES in NDSP under Bill Kirk conducting investigations as POLICE DETECTIVES for du Lac violations! Talk about intimidation. Word is someone out there has them on audio tape....and then ND denied it! There is abuse of power and corruption at ND like you would not believe. Ask around, in SBPD or St. Joseph Sheriff's office, people that have been around awhile will tell you about things that will shock you. The cover ups, including cocaine under the dome. ND will do almost anything to protect its image and money. This ain't your daddy's ND anymore people. The Notre Dame Family is dead and was replaced by a soulless ND, Inc. years ago and it's finally coming to light.
We need to contact the presidents office and the the VPs office of Res Life and let them know how we feel. Res Life basically said if your kids rights were violated by the police,they can help you get in touch with the right people in S.Bend. How about they get in touch with the right people and ask what is going on? The "ND Family" that was spewed upon us when we first arrive on campus freshman year! This reminds me of the Duke mess, that university sold its students down the river. They were guilty until proven innocent! I was naive enough to belive that ND would take care of our kids!
From what I have witnessed, the res life people are a bunch of zero tolerance drones. They are mindless, uncompassionate sheeple. Computers could do their jobs just as well. I just don't know where everyone is going form here. Students were hurt. I won't settle for, "Sorry, we won't do it again, and we'll try to be better next time." What is goiung to happen to all the students that were affected this fall? All I know is that upcoming years will produce very lean donations from alumni. This group of future alumni are very, very bitter. If the school wants to bring these students back into the fold, they have to do something to earn their trust. I don't know if the present administration is capable of doing that and fixing this mess. So far, I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe otherwise.
Richie: The President and VP are part of the problem. A first step would be to can Bill Kirk.
I saw on therealnotredame.com where a former air force guy had a No Trespassing notice given to him, does he not realize ND is keeping a file on him FOREVER and that it could affect future security clearances and background checks?
Post a Comment
Links to this post:
Create a Link
<< Home