He did build the ND LAX program to where it is today. I also would rate him as a very good coach. However, IMO if Tierney had been coaching ND for the past 3-4 years, we already would have won perhaps 2 NCs. Corrigan has been out coached more than a few times and at times he appears to have no answer to what an opponent is doing. There are at least 5 or more LAX coaches that are at an elite level above Corrigan and nothing will change that. Just as Kelly will never be a Meyer or Sabin, Corrigan is not at the pinnacle of lacrosse coaches. NCs are going to be very hard to achieve, as we have shown repeatedly.

Tierney only has 1 NC with his Denver team in the last 4 years and they have as good or better talent than ND. He has elite level players on offense, a great FOGO and an under appreciated defense.

Could you make the case that Danowski and Tierney are better than Corrigan? Sure, I'll give you that. Anyone else? Desko? Corrigan has held his own against him. Tillman? ND is 3-1 in the last 3 years vs him.

Losing in the tourney sucks. Especially the way we did today. However, If my son was a D1 caliber lacrosse player, there isn't another coach or program I'd want him to play for more than Corrigan and ND.

I'd have no problem whatsoever with having my son play for Shay at Yale or Tiffany at Brown.

I would have taken Tierney, although he is getting close to retirement. I personally would take Pressler, Desko,Tillman, Danowski and perhaps a few others over Corrigan. Don't forget all the NCs that Tierney and others have already won. Not saying Corrigan isn't good. It is just that the team all too frequently has lapses, commits uncalled for errors and lacks a cohesive offense. We score lots of goals on 20 foot shots while opponents are scoring from much closer. The team plays poorly in spurts and great in others. I attribute some of this to coaching. Corrigan is the Brey of Lacrosse. He is a good coach, fits the ND image, runs a clean program and can't win a NC. I will be very pleasantly surprised when this happens in lacrosse, men's basketball or football.

...but teams have not been getting a ton of close in shots this year and that's why we've won games. Syracuse was consistently backing the ball out because they couldn't solve our defense. We limited Duke to 6 goals on the first game. The reason we've been so good is that our D typically pushes people out so they are taking shots that are easy for our goalie to see.

Our D played a shitty game yesterday. Even Navy's goalie, who played out of his ever-loving mind Saturday, couldn't stop everything.

You can complain about our offensive flow or lack there of. But defense has been the least of our worries for oh, the last dozen years. If not longer.

They scouted us well, had a game plan, knew our weaknesses, defended well, had a good goalie performance and appeared to be a step faster. Yes, we lost the game but we were beaten by a team that was better yesterday and better the last time we played them. I would have hoped that after being embarrassed in the 4th quarter of the last game we played them, that we would be out for revenge. It didn't appear that we were. Enough lacrosse for 2016.
Be back next year.

He has played even with Desko (kicked his ass this year). Danowski is probably better.

I'll take who we have, thanks

when ND gave a performance in a critical game bad enough to be labeled "Kellyesque." ND is consistently playing at an elite level in men's lacrosse. Kelly's football teams have managed that in only one season, and that one was capped by an even worse defeat than we suffered today.

I'm infuriated that we can't get over the hump to win the championship. But that's a much better problem to have than what we have with the football program.

Given the first round results, we looked like we might have a chance this year.

And we come out and lay a complete and total dud in all facets.

Oh well, on to next year (and me lurking back here)

I do. I love Monday morning qb's!

Anything bad with the university? Blame or compare it to Kelly. It'd be nice if we could limit the conversations, but people have their minds made up on Kelly and seek every ND sports opportunity to share it.

Football is sort of the gold standard of ND sports. All sports get measured against it, good or bad, because it's Notre Dame football.

As for Kelly, I agree, minds are made up. He's been the coach for 6 seasons, this is his 7th. I'm not sure what else we all need to see, there is lots of evidence to pull from to come to a conclusion. It's not like we're heading into year 3 or 4, we're heading into year 7. He'll be 64% of the way through Holtz' ND tenure at the end of this year. 73% after next year.


At of right now, the only coaches with more games coached at ND, in our history, are Rockne, Leahy, Ara and Lou. As of next year, here is the games coached landscape:

Lou - 132
Rockne - 122
Ara - 116
Leahy - 107
Kelly - 91 (assuming he coaches a bowl game this year)

How many more games do we need to make up our minds in your opinion?

But had Michigan St. fans been as confident and adamant of Mark Dantonio's coaching prowess, they'd have missed out on all of their BCS appearances.

Because through year 6 Dantonio was .646 WP with 2 bowl wins in the Outback and Buffalo Wild Wings bowls. That was on the heels of 4 straight mediocre bowl losses (unless you want to call the Capital One bowl way above average). Dantonio also had a losing season bunched in there, against what I'd consider to be an overall inferior schedule to what Notre Dame generally plays.

Kelly through year 6, has a .705 WP, and 2 trips to BCS caliber bowls (at least under the old definition).

ND is certainly not where I want to the program to be, but I don't know that I've seen all the evidence necessary to know we aren't going to get there. I admire the prescience of those that see the situation so much more vividly. With Weis, Willingham, and Davie, there was a more palpable sense that there were obstacles that those guys could never going to overcome, regardless.

I am sure I'll get labeled a Kelly-lover, but I've seen improvements and enhancements in the program that bode well for the future. I've seen the overall talent level improve. I see a program in good shape and capable of competing in the elite realm.

I am not saying there isn't a fairly plentiful pool of data to pull from, but I don't find it nearly the fait accompli (or even definitely persuasive) that so many others here see. He's certainly not a failure, and that's exactly how he's painted.

Witness: what do you call a blow out loss to North Carolina in the NCAA quarterfinals? Kellyesque.

I am open to the possibility that he's not hit his ceiling. That's all. But I guess another point of divergence, I don't see eras like Rockne or Leahy ever happening again at ND. Not to say that I don't aspire for that, but not sure how realistic it is either.

I guess I should answer your question, though. Coachocinco, or whatever the cavalry is prone to calling him now, would likely be enough to convince me that it might be a good time to change direction. But context matters, and we were a 15-yard penalty against Stanford from being in the playoff mix (or certainly the discussion). We need to catch some breaks, but anything equal to or less than 8 wins would probably seal my beliefs.

But there are plenty of other examples the other way, and you and I both know that.

Moreover, we aren't MSU.

And while we aren't the Notre Dame of Leahy, Ara or even Lou (it's not 1988 anymore, just for jt), this idea that we somehow were so beaten down we needed to start from scratch is horseshit.

Look at Ohio State, look at Bama (yes, I know, Saban and Meyer), but it's pretty damn simple, if those guys can do it, there is no reason we cannot.



But let me be blunt and get directly to the point. Kelly wasn't hired as a slow builder, no one sold it that way at all when he was hired (including Kelly himself). The retrofitting of expectations to fit the results has been fascinating to watch.

When we hired him, he went to the BCS with X QBs
The retrofitted talking point - he needs the right QB to truly run his system

When we hired him, he turned CMU and Cincy around in 3 years.
The retrofitted talking point - he needed time, he inherited a mess


I'm not buying what you are selling, mostly because we aren't MSU, but also because I think it's bullshit that we're trying to rewrite the talking points after the fact. He was hired to win and win right away, and it didn't matter who the QB was, etc. Those were the exact statements and rhetoric used by those who defended the hire at the outset. Google works here and on other forums, it's easy to find all of those conversations. Now, it's, he needs time, the right QB, program building, just look at MSU. I appreciate the effort, I simply reject the rewrite to fit the current state of affairs.

You don't have to buy what I am selling. Everybody is entitled to their own perspective.

My view on the state of the program Kelly inherited probably doesn't match yours and probably doesn't even match Kelly's.

You say Michigan St. is anomalous. Ok, well then what are Saban and Meyer? Who else has been able to have that kind of success so instantly (and Saban's wasn't so immediate)?

I am not here to make excuses, because I concede 2 things (one of which is repetitive):

- ND is currently not at the level it needs to be;
- The timeline of my expectations for success hasn't been met.

And I agree we aren't MSU. But I also think the anti-Kelly cognoscenti refuses to concede that while ND has numerous built-in advantages, there are also some disadvantages that hamper ND's efforts.

But the same stuff you are writing now, is different than the things that were written in 2012 (pre-Alabama game), which is different than what was written in 2010/11.

I think we all agree that the program needs to be better and more consistent. And I am not about to make excuses for why we haven't. And I am not about to reset, rewrite, or retrofit expectations. Rather, my point is that I happen to see more positive signs than negative ones right now. I haven't seen enough to adopt the notion that his failure and the program's is imminent, at least from a forward looking-perspective (which is different than what I felt of Davie, Willingham, and Weis in their last year or 2).

But what I struggle to understand form the angry anti-Kelly crowd is the answer. Because it's clear to them that Kelly has failed and will continue to be a failure. OK, so what's the solution? Apparently, it's to hire Meyer or Saban. If it's something different, please enlighten me. But I don't view that strategy as any less exceptional than mine, which is that I don't think ND has hit its ceiling under Kelly (and haven't ruled out a pick up in performance after year 6).

We should start there, because if your goal is not to win a national title, then we can stop and part ways, and buy each other beers the next time we see each other, and laugh about 99% of this stuff.


But if the goal is to win a title, MSU isn't very relevant, because they haven't done it.

But let's look at the recent history

Saban at Bama - won the title in year 3 (2009) and has won several more since. Won at LSU in year 4 before moving on to the NFL
Meyer at OSU - won the title in year 3 (2014) and has won several others at schools like Florida (years 2 and 4)
Fisher at FSU - won the title in year 4 (2013)
Chizik at Auburn - won in year 2 (2010) and has since been fired and is the DC an UNC
Les Miles at LSU - won in year 3 (2007) and they are ready to run him out on a rail
Mack Brown at Texas - won in year 8 (2005) and has since "retired". He is the one example in the past 20 years of playing the long game on the title
Pete Carroll at USC - split the title in year 3 and won in year 4 (2003 and 2004), but cheated to do so
Jim Tressel at OSU - won in year 2 (2002)
Coker at Miami - won in year 1 (2001)
Stoops at OU - won in year 2 (2000)


That is all of the championships that have been won since we changed centuries. Of the 15 titles in that time frame, 1 has been won for the first time by a coach at that school beyond his 4th year at the school.

That's why I'm not OK with playing the long game, it's not how the vast majority of teams win titles. We're going into year 6. I don't think for 1 second we are capable of winning the title this year. Why? Because Kelly hasn't shown the ability to win one big time game, let alone 2 in a row.

As for what has been said previously, I don't think Kelly sucks, I don't think he's an awful coach either. I think he's very very good. But very very good isn't good enough, he needs to win titles. Competing for them is a good thing, and it's better than his predecessors. But ultimately, it's not good enough.

And I can sum it up very easily. What are the odds you'd put on Kelly winning 2 straight games against the best teams in college football on a neutral field? I've seen nothing in his track record to put those odds very high at all, and we're 6 years in, so I'm not sure what is going to dramatically change those odds. I don't fault you for holding out hope. But I'm tired of the trope that what I've just laid out is some antiquated, it's not 1988 anymore, gold seat bullshit. It's a logical and sound position to take, by all measures.

But I also see the goal a little different than I see the expectations. Clearly to me, 8 and 9 win seasons are not meeting expectations.

But I also don't want having a goal of a national championship to be the equivalent of shooting the moon. Larry Coker, Mack Brown, and Gene Chizik all won national titles, but I wouldn't want ND to hire any of those guys. If it's a national title without any kind of sustainability, then I'd argue that my definition of ND's goal is more nuanced.

Said a little differently, and I know this might sound sacrilege, but I think I'd rather have a program like Oregon that was constantly in the national title conversation morese than I'd want one title like Chizik. Heck, I'd rather probably see something that mirrored Dantonio's post year 6 than to have a program that was as inconsistent as Auburn. But I can understand those that disagree.

But of your list, I think Kelly stacks up well compared to Fisher, Miles, and Stoops. The latter being a poster child for how difficult it is to win any title.

But then I think the next question is how do we get there. I am still not convinced that Michigan, who made the biggest splash hire since Meyer is necessarily assured of winning the title.

There are 2 sure gold standards in college football right now, and I am not sure anyone is hiring those guys away.

The totality of Kelly's body of work is not enough. Clearly. But if 2015 becomes a baseline (and that's the most recent data point) then I think that provides ND the best chance at winning 2 straight games against the best teams in college football. Heck, our 3 losses were against arguably 3 of the best teams in college football last season, and 2 of those should have been wins on the road. Note, I did say should so it wasn't good enough. But for me (and I understand if there are different views), it demonstrated an ability to compete (although not finish) at the highest level.

I wished Kelly would mix things up defensively, because to my untrained eye, that was the primary obstacle in ND winning 2 games against the best teams in the country and being a 10-3 club. But Kelly is on the hook for that. I think next year bodes significantly toward proving whether 2012 was a fluke or whether 8 or 9 wins is likely. If it's the latter then I am fine moving on. But I just hope we have a viable reset strategy at that point.

Nor a donkey. Does ND even care?

We lose in the final 8,4,2. Always. It's a minor sport. I get it. I want to understand why. Lack of resources, not quite top recruits, coaching? We seem so close but it never happens.

It's frustrating to me too, but I also realize that one loss in the NCAA tournament and you're done. Every now and then, a few of your key players will have an off day, a coach will have an off day, etc.

It's not exactly like this is a horrid program, and there are many positives we can point to, to wit:

* ND has 11 straight appearance in the NCAA tournament. Only Maryland has a longer active streak in that regard.

* ND has advanced to the quarterfinals in each of the last seven seasons. That's the longest active streak by far. The next longest active streak belongs to Maryland, with three consecutive trips to the quarterfinals.

* Prior to this season, we had been to the last two Final Fours, three Final Fours in the preceding four years and Four Final Fours in the preceding six years.

To paraphrase Bum Philips' famous quote, we've been knocking at the damn door. Now we just have to bust it down.

This is arguably the first time in his tenure the team underperformed preseason expectations. Which of course, were to win the title. You can quibble that that was the expectation last year too and I won't argue, but we lost in OT to the team that won the title.

This program has been to 4 Final Fours in the last six years and has the longest active streak of making the quarters. We were always a pity choice to get in the tourney and now we're a program expected to win it. Because of the program Corrigan has built.

I will grant you that he has built a consistent top 5 program
but he has had several opportunities in the last six years to
do so.....today's performance was horrible.....

I'm profoundly disappointed in the end of our season. I was sure this was our year.


Danowski used to be a coach who couldn't win the big one either. Duke was a program that couldn't finish it off. See 2005, 07, 08,09.

Sports just suck sometimes.

I'm just trying to provide context.