I don't know why people get so jazzed up
by ACross (2024-02-02 11:10:58)

In reply to: As Kids, They Thought They Were Trans.  posted by FL_Irish


I know a family whose child has been transgender for 3 years and is now age 5. It is not easy on them but they provide as much love and support to that child as they do to their other children.

A colleague has a child who is in high school who is "fluid". Same approach by the parents.

Third, I have a friend who had his child become transgender as a freshman in HS.

All these kids deserve love and support and to be free from scorn and bullying.


They deserve love and support...
by czeche  (2024-02-03 15:34:28)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

...and competent science-driven medical care built on the value of "do no harm."

Europe is reducing the use of medical transitioning, etc. It's not because of religious opposition, but rather because of scientific evidence that does not support the American approach as it exists today.

Love and support are not always a "yes" as any parent should understand.


How is this diagnosed? *
by ufl  (2024-02-02 16:17:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply


Kid identified as a particular gender
by ACross  (2024-02-02 17:46:21)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

that differed from the child's biological gender. Clothes, stating the child's gender, child insisting the parents were dressing the child incorrectly, preference of play activities.

It was a big challenge for these parents, both wonderful and accomplished and successful people and great parents and by no means liberal or what Ralph would call progressive.

They have no immediate plans for any time of surgical procedure, and they have sought and received and followed medical and psychological opinions and guidance.

My large point is that perhaps the anti woke crowd should give these families a break and even some understanding and support and empathy.


Thanks
by ufl  (2024-02-02 19:58:49)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

I can’t imagine telling my parents that they were dressing me wrong. I don’t think they cared that I liked to read instead of playing with guns.

I dunno, it seems like a stretch at that age but I’m in the dark about a lot of things.


I actually stepped pretty badly on my crank
by ACross  (2024-02-02 22:29:35)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

The mom is very cool, her son is tight with my you ger son, she spends a lot of time with her daughter who is classmates w my older son. The father is as involved as he can possibly be given his subspecialty.

Two years ago I was trying to talk to the kid and made assumptions as to the kid's gender and it didn't work out so well. I didn't figure it out for a while. My grade: F.


Amen. *
by ocnd  (2024-02-02 14:18:43)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply


Is there a typo there?
by DBCooper  (2024-02-02 12:19:30)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

“I know a family whose child has been transgender for 3 years and is now age 5“

That seems a bit… early


The child was 3. Typo *
by ACross  (2024-02-02 14:44:13)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply


3 seems quite early to know much of anything *
by ravenium  (2024-02-02 15:11:34)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply


However also unlikey at that age for it to be a response to
by wpkirish  (2024-02-02 19:08:04)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

type of societal conditions that people believe are leading to this which would lead me to believe the kid is seeing something in himself or herself.

I dont know anyone who is trans but the gay friends I have are all pretty clear they knew from a very young age.


Human nature is a complex mystery for sure
by ravenium  (2024-02-03 17:52:09)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

I think at the end of the day I'm just here to raise my hand, admit I know jack squat, and just try to treat people with respect and dignity, even if I don't fully understand their situation.

At that age, I would agree that society probably isn't doing that (despite the far right boogiemen). It may be parents overreacting, but I'm also not going to backseat parent anyone.

A couple thoughts, if you'll allow me -

- I would think one's knowing if they were gay or straight would be predicated on puberty, wouldn't it? I thought girls were super cootie gross until right around the time my voice started cracking (ok, not exactly, but you get the idea).

- I think the whole idea of gender as a social construct vs actual medical dysmorphia gets conflated a lot. Having to make someone whole (for lack of a better term) medically seems to be a world apart from a kid who decides he likes barbies or gi joes better. We probably place too much emphasis on the latter.


Random anecdote: Bobby Flay asked for an easy bake oven when he was a kid. His dad freaked out, but he turned out fine.



-


Both of your points are highly valid and relevant
by czeche  (2024-02-04 07:59:23)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

I believe the Economist writes that studies of prepubertal kids who believe they are Trans show that, if allowed to progress through puberty, they are usually (but not always) glad they did not, and usually (but not always) turn out to be homosexual instead.

That suggests that medicalizing this prepubertally likely causes more harm than good. One major issue is that in the United states, since affirmation is the one allowed response at present, there will not be any advancement in determining who will end up still wanting to be trans vs realizing they actually did not... hopefully Europe advances that science.

In the meantime, any parent who has a child who identifies as Trans would be unable to find someone willing to explore that identity without firmly trying to answer the question for the child. The battle lines are drawn.


Who decided that affirmation is the only allowed response
by Dutch  (2024-02-04 09:25:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

in the US? How did that decision get made? What will it take to change that status quo?

While these questions are important for the specific issue of how best to care for prepubertal kids who believe they are trans, I think there are also some lessons to learn from this more generally.


Well, that is what happened
by ACross  (2024-02-02 17:00:53)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

The child identified as a particular gender and chose clothes and toys consistent with that gender.


My experience with trans kids in fellowship
by AquinasDomer  (2024-02-02 18:14:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

Was that their families didn't skew more progressive than other families. Normal people trying to fo the best for their kids.


My 3 year old once told my wife
by manofdillon  (2024-02-02 15:56:47)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

to point her penis down when she said she had to use the bathroom (advice we regularly gave him at that age as he was learning to use the bathroom on his own, which at that point involved sitting down to pee). Not a well developed concept of sex and gender.


Not sure if the kid was concerned about genitalia *
by ACross  (2024-02-02 18:57:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply


I don’t know your friends and am not passing judgment.
by manofdillon  (2024-02-02 20:34:14)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

Have had five kids who were all 3 at one point, I really struggle to imagine a 3 year old having any developed sense of what it means to be a boy or girl, such that any meaning could be ascribed to one’s expressed desire to dress like or play with toys associated with the opposite gender. Maybe their favorite tv character is the opposite sex and they want to emulate that? Or a friend at day care or preschool who is the opposite sex? I just don’t know how a 3 year old boy could have any developed sense of what it really means to be a boy or girl beyond the most superficial characteristics that he or she can identify at that age. But I certainly haven’t lived that or had any first had experience with it.


I never mentioned whether the child was a boy
by ACross  (2024-02-02 22:36:16)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

Or a girl, biologically.


The point still stands.
by JTAD31  (2024-02-03 07:59:52)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

Does a 3 year old know enough to ask for a sex change?

Can a 3 year old make any rational decisions? I know my kids couldn't.

It seems very early to be making decisions like that. About 15 years early.


It’s patently absurd. *
by thehibernian  (2024-02-06 20:34:15)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply


Statistically, that 5 year old is probably a biological boy
by Tex Francisco  (2024-02-02 12:40:07)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

who will grow up to be a cisgender gay man.


No one should disagree with your final sentence.
by manofdillon  (2024-02-02 11:19:31)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

And I generally agree with the approach of leaving parents and their children to work out what's best with them. But I don't think it's crazy to be concerned about a growing trend in performing life-altering surgeries on minor children when there appears, as suggested in the article, to be scant research in the area and real concerns that it might not be the panacea some advocates suggest. And I think there's a legitimate state interest in protecting minor children from permanent harm, even if their parents are in favor (just as I can't take my 5 year old to go get a tattoo, even if I think it'd make him a happier kid).

Calling people by the name and pronouns they prefer (as I've consistently done with a transgender colleague), showing respect, discouraging and punishing bullying, make reasonable accommodations for bathroom/changing facilities, etc., all fine by me.


They also deserve medical care that considers not only if
by FL_Irish  (2024-02-02 11:18:02)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

…they are in fact experiencing gender dysphoria, but also other issues as an alternative/additional diagnosis.

Why can’t they have both things they deserve?


This family has the medical issues covered *
by ACross  (2024-02-02 19:03:07)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply


I think medical/psychological care in this area
by Kali4niaND  (2024-02-02 13:24:29)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

is pretty scarce, and probably very expensive, unfortunately.

Parents certainly should not be flying solo on these decisions. I think they're pretty complex.


Indeed. *
by Brahms  (2024-02-02 12:40:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply