College Admissions..
by TWO (2019-03-18 11:55:16)

with the current scandal going on, how would you feel if the whole process had some defined way of allowing the best candidates to get into a school, be that Notre Dame or Texas State? No edges given to anybody, you're record determines if you get in, not your parents, not donations, etc.

I saw a survey where more than 50% of the people polled felt that giving legacies an edge over other students was unfair. Many colleges do just that, as does ND with it's Legacy pool. Also no doubt that donors all over the country are expecting a quid pro quo for their donation. I am guessing that at least at ND these kids are qualified for admission just don't have to compete for that spot, has to be very few of these kids though. While I think I have read that legacies are targeted to be around 30% of the class.

So would you be ok with Notre Dame eliminating the Legacy pool in interest making the process more fair?

Do you think denying children of wealthy donors automatic admission and make them go through the same process as every other student would impact donations much if at all?


Not a direct reply, but my two-cents worth
by 02DAD  (2019-03-19 13:15:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

As someone who has helped thousands of high school students and their parents with the college application process over the past thirty years, I am not shocked by this recent admission scandal; only saddened and angered. The unscrupulous efforts of third-party agents, students hired to take SAT exams for other students, grades being changed by high school counselors, essays being written by others and then submitted as the student’s own work, and admission officers giving “extra special consideration” to certain students for “certain reasons” have all been a part of this process for a long time. However, the recent findings involving the complete fabrication of student athletic abilities, the photo-shopping of pictures to support these bogus accomplishments, the university coaches and employees who received thousands of dollars as their payment for their complicity, and all of the other recent findings take the whole system to a completely different level. I have seen far too many honest, hard-working students receive the dreaded “Wait List” decision, only to find out now that part of that decision, even if only a small part, was the result of workings behind the admission’s office door and totally out of their control. The only positive that I take from this expose is that it will draw attention to the problem, force universities and testing agencies to be even more forthright in doing full diligence to demand complete honesty in all aspects of their respective obligations, and therefore help eliminate the stench of the current situation. I am extremely proud of the students I have helped who earned their acceptances to these very selective colleges, acceptances based on their own merits, hard work, and their own honesty. You have shown that it can be done the right way.


Things are just so different now. So much more planned.
by Raoul  (2019-03-18 22:23:12)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

My dad was from Canada. He's 89 so having heard of ND only from football in late 1940's ==> 1970's he had no idea it was any kind of good school. He assumed both ND and USC had 40-60K kids like all the big football colleges in the US (i.e. Michigan State and Michigan and OSU). Didn't realize it was so small until my brother applied.

My older brother only looked into ND because his best friend's dad went there. That dad was a 50's era Irish guy whose brothers all went. Talked about it like it was the greatest place on earth. I subsequently went there because my brother went there. That is it. That I was valedictorian of my HS was not a big part of the deal. My public HS counselor openly wondered why any smart kid from Michigan would ever feel the need to go out of state.

This was only 35-40 years ago. It might as well have been 200 years. I have much more in common with my dad's life from 0 to age 22 (he graduated University of Ottawa in 1951) than I do (or will have) with my son's for that same time period.

BTW - my dad only went to college after an older family friend encouraged him to do so in July of 1947. "What are you going to do with yourself? I know someone at University of Ottawa you can write to and maybe go there." No one in his family went to college so he hadn't thought of it. There was no big application process. He only applied to one school. If he didn't do that he said he would have been working at the Chryslers plant just like his older sister's husband who had started there right after the war. It paid much better than working at his dad's small corner store stacking canned peas and carrots to sell to the neighborhood women.

No wonder kids are so stressed. I don't think he ever thought much beyond the coming week...or even the next meal at that age. His oldest brother died at 24 so just being alive was a pretty good thing.




College admissions have always been about what is good for
by wbroder1  (2019-03-18 17:59:00)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

the school.

Sometimes that's accepting the top students to further the school's reputation for producing top professionals (athletic or non-athletic professionals)

Sometimes that's accepting a legacy to promote continued heath of the endowment.

Sometimes that's accepting a building on campus along with a student.

Sometimes that's accepting the child of a celebrity to increase visibility of the school in certain circles.

There are others that are less politically correct to discuss.

To change this system requires a total overhaul and oversight that is probably not feasible.


The bell-shaped curve
by SixShutouts66  (2019-03-18 17:23:45)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

TexFrancisco and ufl, among others, made the point that the applicant pool resembles a standard distribution or bell-shaped curve. That is, if you assigned each applicant a numerical grade based on weighted scores for various qualities (grades, test scores, references, essay, outside activities) and plotted the results (score vs number of students with that score), you see a familiar distribution.

What this means is that it's easier to identify the top and bottom of the applicant pool, but it's often hard to distinguish the other applicants with all the variables involved (added prep time, bad day at the SAT, who looks at the application in admissions, added help with essay, BS ability).

As my distinguished colleagues, who didn't have parents slip a Jack Daniels to boards Ops to be able to post, point out that other factors come into play for the rest of the class. Legacy is one, but so are racial and gender diversity, geography, probably balance between the majors.

For me the issue occurs if the schools selects people outside that range of scores to fill spots.


An article written by a Harvard Professor regarding
by 3rdSt  (2019-03-18 15:07:52)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

college admissions and our fake meritocracy is an interesting read. Particularly when he states that many of his Harvard students would not have made the cut at Oxford, where he taught previously, at all.


Since the scandal broke,
by BeijingIrish  (2019-03-18 13:36:05)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I've done a lot of thinking about these issues, e.g., ROI Ivies vs state schools, etc. The context for my musings are my grandchildren, quite young now, but, as they say, tempus fugit. The oldest is only in 6th grade, but he is already conscious of what's ahead. He and his brother attend a very competitive, very expensive private school in Dallas. Matthew wants to go to Stanford (he and his family lived in Palo Alto before they moved to Dallas). His fall-back is Harvard. You laugh, but conversations about this stuff are already part of discussions at the family dinner table and among his friends at school.

When I was in 6th grade, my career goal was to be a major league ballplayer. My dad encouraged this. Later, when discipline issues seemed to be distracting me from academic success, Mom suggested that I go to Denver Country Day School. She arranged for an interview, and the headmaster assured her that they would straighten me out in no time. My father, who was unaware of Mom's initiative, was furious. "He's not going to school with those DCD fairies. If he doesn't straighten up, he can go into the goddamn Army..."

Anyway, as I thought about all this stuff, I was prompted to visit the websites of several Canadian universities. What led me there was a post on this board describing the 2019-20 tuition at ND. I was, and am, horrified. I wanted to see what the difference in tuition between major Canadian schools and ND was. In the course of visiting McGill's website, I chanced to visit the admission page. I thought McGill was relevant because any list of North America-based, high-quality institutions of higher learning would include McGill, no?

For graduates of US high schools, they want the transcripts for 10th, 11th, and 12th grade. The transcripts must demonstrate an A- average or don't bother. They also want either ACT or SAT test results (the score minimums are specified--for the SAT the minimum is 1370, I think). Again, if your scores don't fall above the minimum, don't bother. No interviews, no letters of recommendation. Extracurriculars mean nothing. They don't care if you worked in a vet's office or a homeless shelter.

I like the McGill system. Merit. What a concept, no?


Cistercian?
by tommy gee  (2019-03-18 16:31:23)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Do your grandchildren go to Cistercian? My nephews are there now, another went there.


St. Mark's *
by BeijingIrish  (2019-03-18 17:24:32)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


My Cousin is head of the Upper School there. *
by FtWorthIrish  (2019-03-18 16:46:05)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I never thought I'd say this but..........
by SouthSideIrish  (2019-03-18 15:50:34)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I'm glad I didn't have kids.


Testify! I have enough problems of my own. *
by The Holtz Room  (2019-03-18 17:32:41)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Sometimes I suggest mandatory birth control until licensed
by DakotaDomer  (2019-03-18 20:47:35)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Like everyone has to be “fixed” until they’ve obtained a license to breed. There would be aptitude tests and relationship interviews plus a credit score for good measure.

Everyone says it’s a Draconian idea.

Then I tell them about my friend TheHoltzRoom...

They come around eventually


When my legend becomes fact, print the legend. *
by The Holtz Room  (2019-03-18 21:00:00)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


So grade inflation and teaching to the SAT?
by ewillND  (2019-03-18 15:01:27)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Your system would produce a population that spends a lot of time learning how to game the system and not enough time exploring things they are passionate about. No thank you.

We need to move towards getting rid of grades, and ask students to apply to universities with CVs, personal statements, letters of recommendation, and portfolios of work. Students would learn to take feedback from their teachers and use it to make real improvements in performance, instead of just trying to figure out "what I need to do to get an A in this class." They will take some chances and do some really creative stuff. And it will make the admissions departments earn their paychecks.

You want to get kids who will go on to do great things? Let them take some chances, instead of spending their weekends in SAT prep courses.


I read this entire subthread...
by El Kabong  (2019-03-19 12:36:23)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

...and kept seeing "Portillos".


in Australia they account for grade inflation
by plaid_pants  (2019-03-18 17:47:34)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

College entry is based on your grades in 6 core classes. Your grades in year 11 and year 12 in those classes determine your "Overall Position" or OP for short.

Kids do take standardized tests, but the standardized test scores are aggregated across the entire school and used as a basis for normalizing each schools grades. For example, if you average a B in year 11 and year 12 Physics, but your school has a higher aggregate performance on the standardized test than the rest of the country, your grade would be raised to a B+ or an A- to account for the difficulty of the school. The final OP is a formula based on your position in your class and your school's position relative to other schools in Australia.

The system tries to combine the best of both worlds. It realizes that day-to-day performance against your peers is a better metric, but also realizes that being average in a very talented peer group also has merit over being the highest performer in an average peer group.


i'm canadian, I have a daughter in HS who is a senior
by boethius  (2019-03-18 17:28:17)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

and nobody here games the system. its based on marks. I cannot speak for private schools, but in the public system, nobody gives kids higher marks so they can go to university. that would be unreasonable and unfair - two things we are definitely not.


No, but BI's merit-only system might encourage it.
by ewillND  (2019-03-19 01:01:28)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

If all universities set a minimum standard for grades and test scores below which students need not apply, in a system where we have decided that admission into elite universities is of utmost importance, then I think we would see students carrying even more stress than they are now (and their stress loads can be quite high), taking classes that they know they will get an A in, regardless of whether they are interested or not (I can remember a story when we lived in the US of a kid who took Mandarin I his senior year to preserve status as valedictorian, despite the fact that it was his native language). And the kids who can afford private tutors would have a spectacular advantage over kids that can't. Again, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer because the system would be set up that way.

We have technology now that would allow students and teachers to create narrative achievement reports and work with students to create electronic portfolios of work that admissions boards could evaluate. Kids might be more willing to dig into a subject that they are really interested in rather than getting their A and moving on to something else. It's a lot more work for the office than sifting through 80,000 Common Apps, but it could give kids a chance to thrive that might get weeded out by a minimum GPA or test score.


I agree with your approach and some of it, such as
by ocmj  (2019-03-18 17:05:04)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

submitting portfolios, is already in place. For example, students pursuing the Arts usually have to submit portfolios as well as audition in person. The Iovine & Young Academy at USC, while still requiring grades and ACT/SAT scores, also requires everything you list long with personal interviews.

It's way too easy to eliminate bright students who may not shine on paper and can contribute much in the classroom.


Grade inflation can be adjusted for
by ShillelaghHugger  (2019-03-18 16:30:08)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Schools can look at class rank, unweighted GPAs and difficulty of schedule to roll back whatever GPA the student reports. Elite schools analyze class rank, scores on AP/IB tests and SAT/ACT to help offset grade inflation.

Schools who inflate their grades do it at a disservice to their own kids, IMO.


Your SAT outlook is wrong
by orangejubilee  (2019-03-18 15:40:40)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I'd be fine ditching grades, but the SAT is highly correlated to intelligence. Sure some folks benefit from prep courses, and most would be wise to at least grab a vocab workbook. But it is STANDARDIZED, which is the important part.

I'd take the smartest kids (realizing there will be some duds) than the best bullshitter on CVs, "Portfolios of Work" and "Personal Statements". I'm sure the dolt with an 800 SAT who's dad went to Stanford would love to put together some statements and work product with dear old dad and make sure the college doesn't see his grades or SAT score.

Standardized tests are the most valuable resource because of there very name


SAT is not standardized with so many kids getting extra time
by doghoused  (2019-03-18 16:16:31)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

There is a cottage industry among crazy parents in the northeast (and presumably elsewhere) to generate an IEP for your kid before he/she enters high school so that he/she gets extra time to take the SAT or ACT. While I believe that there are some kids who have legitimate reasons for additional time, there are too many others who are getting extra time, or no time limit at all, with a trumped-up "condition". How is this still considered a standardized test?




Don't believe extra time matters that much
by turtle17  (2019-03-18 17:51:47)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I don't have a lot of evidence either way, but I'd be surprised is extra time mattered that much for the SAT, especially at the high end. Mostly just based on my experience years ago and my oldest kids recently. The ACT is more rushed, maybe matters more than than the SAT.
About college, I can confirm that extra time forms are common, and that it isn't that hard to design tests for which they aren't a big advantage.


Well, it's OK
by KeoughCharles05  (2019-03-18 16:45:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Those kids will get extra time on their work projects too.


Many are already getting extra time in college
by NavyJoe  (2019-03-18 16:54:00)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

My wife works at a school in the UC system. If memory serves me correct, more than 40% of students at her university "qualify" for special-testing circumstances.


Portfolios consist of assessments produced at school.
by ewillND  (2019-03-18 16:01:27)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

So you can see the actual piece of work that the student did, or you can just see the grade at the top. Mom and dad would have a tough time putting together a piece of work that I sent to a university as part of a kid's portfolio--they do all of our assessments in class.

SATs may correlate to IQ tests, but there is also good evidence that they also correlate to wealth--rich kids do better than poor kids, in part because of actual physiological differences in the brain that occur because the kids from lower-income families don't have the same opportunities to develop their temporal and occipital lobes, and they are often subjected to more stress. So our system is making the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, because inequitable access to a good education makes it so.


Hard to imagine any useful information
by ufl  (2019-03-18 16:21:35)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

that's not correlated with wealth.


Then why are there gaps in achievement by race?
by NavyJoe  (2019-03-18 15:55:43)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

There are statistically significant achievement differences among the races on the sAT and ACT. If the SAT is actually a measure of intelligence, then these differences should not exist.

I'm very sure that someone who scores a 1600 on the SAT is very smart. I'm not sure that someone who scored a 1000 on the SAT isn't smart.


is it a true gap by race, or gap by wealth?
by NDWahoo  (2019-03-18 17:55:47)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

and race is a confounding variable? I ask because I don't know.

If it is mostly economic, then I would posit that it is because children of more wealthy parents get more guidance and prep (both academic and test taking).

Not sure why in the case of race.


I don't know...the College Board doesn't capture those stats
by NavyJoe  (2019-03-18 18:15:28)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

That is, they capture race but not other socio-economic information from the test-takers.

I suppose my point is, on a truly standardized test (if such a thing exists), there ought not be differences by race, sex, or socio-economic class.


If it's a pure native talent test, that's true
by ufl  (2019-03-18 18:50:30)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

However, it's hard to picture any test, however fashioned, whose outcome is unaffected by parental encouragement, school quality, nutrition, and other factors that are likely to be correlated with the variables which you mention.


this.
by NDWahoo  (2019-03-19 10:07:27)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

The SAT and ACT test intelligence, but also test academic achievement, and academic achievement is correlated to a certain extent with social circumstances of upbringing.


I'll sit here and wait for the pro-SAT crowd to respond. *
by Irish Tool  (2019-03-18 17:50:28)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I do hope you're not defending your system.
by SavageDragon  (2019-03-18 15:09:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Because while your criticism is valid, I think that both the US and Canada have a strong leg up on equity and letting kids be kids and teens try interesting things versus deciding at age 10 whether you're "professional material" or not.


How many "kids are being kids" in HS these days?
by NavyJoe  (2019-03-18 15:16:58)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

How many kids that want to attend premier universities in the USA are living anything close to normal, healthy lives? My somewhat informed guess is that it is not nearly as many as it should be.

The German system may identify "professional material" early for your taste, but eWill's rejoinder could very easily be that our system places way too much emphasis on getting into the "right university" often at the expense of the teenager involved.


You know I don’t teach in a German school, right?
by ewillND  (2019-03-18 15:16:33)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I’m not defending any system. I’m briefly explaining why I think the US system and mine would be better off if we got rid of grades. There is a lot of research that supports that idea (and some that doesn’t). It’s complicated, but I think in the long run we would be better off if we destigmatized non-college career paths and made college admissions more work for the admissions officers (and the high school teachers. It’s easy to write a test and throw a number at the top. Good feedback is more work).


Is it an ewill school?
by The Holtz Room  (2019-03-18 17:39:03)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Sorry.


My grandson, a high school freshman, is
by ufl  (2019-03-18 14:38:09)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

making campus visits. As with most matters, grandfatherly input in the decision process is not required.

I can't help but remember when I entered ND (the same week that you did, I imagine). I hadn't visited ND or any other college before that day. The sole exception was the campus of the University of Nebraska. That was pretty much unavoidable since my father ran a Conoco station on the edge of campus.


He's visiting colleges as HS Freshman? Isn't that a
by 3rdSt  (2019-03-18 15:22:45)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

bit early? That doesn't seem to even be on the radar for my Freshman daughter or her friends, and she's a high achieving Honors student at a Catholic Prep school. But maybe I'm out of the loop here.


Well..
by ufl  (2019-03-18 15:37:42)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

when my son and daughter-in-law take family trips, they include a look at college campuses when possible so that he and his sister can start thinking about it.

They aren't really "campus trips" in the usual sense.


I did that growing up as well
by DBCooper  (2019-03-18 20:48:01)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Of course my mom was a guidance counselor. I had counted visiting well over a hundred schools at one point


Ok. That makes sense. *
by 3rdSt  (2019-03-18 15:59:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


There is a poster here..
by TWO  (2019-03-18 15:36:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

who has been a college counselor for a long time, that is advising kids and parents on a path that leads to increased chance of acceptance to the university they desire.

While I don't believe he made recommendations on the start of actual visitations, the start of the the actual process of working on that goal starts even earlier than freshman year of HS. The process he recommends might be one that you shake your head at but it he has a track record.


Sure, I understand that to get into a selective college
by 3rdSt  (2019-03-18 16:01:58)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

you better be aiming for that goal before HS. I just thought the actual narrowing down of schools you may apply to, and thus visit, would occur later in High School.


I like straight-up standards as well.
by squid  (2019-03-18 14:25:18)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

SAT is the gateway to college and colleges publish a 25-75% range that is often 100-200 points apart. Not much of a guide.


GPA in the age of rampant grade inflation and standardized
by FL_Irish  (2019-03-18 14:20:31)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

...test scores in the age of industrial test prep are a poor, overly narrow gauge of the types of ecxellence that elite US colleges are looking for.

Elite US colleges also don’t care if you volunteered at a homeless shelter. But if you founded a nonprofit to help the homeless or conducted original research into the homeless population in your hometown, that’s probably a better indicator of the merit that matters than a grade inflated 4.0.


What's the difference between test prep and studying? *
by squid  (2019-03-18 14:23:53)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Nothing, but if you’re asking me whether I want a kid who
by FL_Irish  (2019-03-18 14:39:15)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

...scores a 1580 after studying for the SATs for a thousand hours or a kid who got a 1480 and used that time to make it to the Intel ISEF, I’ll take the latter.


I think there is a difference between prep and studying
by NavyJoe  (2019-03-18 14:50:12)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

There is a difference between studying the content of the standardized test (math, vocab, reading comprehension, etc.) and understanding the actual drivers of success on the standardized test (e.g., is it better to skip or guess, when is it right to guess, how long should I take on each question, etc.)

I suppose there is also the reality that studying is generally free, while test prep is generally not.


I tend to agree
by ufl  (2019-03-18 15:00:56)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Test preparation is basically that: learning test taking techniques.


My career goal is still to be a major league ballplayer. *
by No Right Turn on Red  (2019-03-18 14:02:28)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Left handed starter! *
by usmcirish  (2019-03-18 14:32:56)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


As soon as I learn to hit a curve, I'm golden. *
by No Right Turn on Red  (2019-03-18 15:21:06)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I've got the left-handed part down.
by voidoid  (2019-03-18 14:40:26)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Regrettably my "fastball" tops out in the low 70s, and my control isn't exactly Bob Tewksbury...


I could see it working for state schools
by bmoreirish  (2019-03-18 13:03:18)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

But would really hurt a school like ND.

That is besides the fact that it would be darn near impossible to compare grades fairly.


What about athletes or other special talents? *
by JTAD31  (2019-03-18 12:27:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


It's definitely an issue.
by TWO  (2019-03-18 12:43:00)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

it would seem that at schools with very selective admissions like ND that they need to have the freedom to take special cases, not exactly sure what you would define as a special talent but say there was a high schooler who was incredible with a musical instrument but not quite academically where they need to be to gain admission, I could see making a decision to admit. Sure it might bump someone who would have been admitted, but life isn't always fair and you can't make it fair with hard line admissions criteria.

At a place, like Texas State, where 70+% of the applicants are admitted their needs are much different than Notre Dame's or any other elite school private or public.


When I was at ND, we looked down on
by Irish Tool  (2019-03-18 12:19:16)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

legacies nearly as much as the waitlisters and transfers.

Neanderthals, the lot of them.


We have lots of names for these people
by 206er  (2019-03-18 16:30:40)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I feel your distain. Your wife feels it twice. *
by Moose84  (2019-03-18 14:45:35)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Can't say if it is still true, but back when I chaired the
by Irish 1978  (2019-03-18 12:07:59)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Alumni Schools Committee for the Washington D.C. Alumni Club I once asked my contact in the ND Admissions Office about legacies having an advantage over the general admissions pool. She told me she didn't think it really had an impact. That they did have a soft target of a percentage of the admitted class being legacy; however, just the shear number of accepted qualified applicants who happened to be legacies met the number year-in and year-out without having to deny non-legacy applicants in order to meet a goal.


Legacies
by ODDMAN  (2019-03-18 16:37:08)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Was told a while back that legacies are held to about 25% or so of an incoming class so about 500 slots.


I doubt that there is any appreciable difference in quali-
by 1NDGal  (2019-03-18 12:54:30)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

fications. ND parents tend to have smart, hardworking kids.

I remember an ND Admissions speaker, when visiting my high school, say it's often actually harder to get in as a legacy because there are so many of us and every one of them is stellar.


Legacy applicants at ND are 2x more likely to be admitted
by NavyJoe  (2019-03-18 13:58:50)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

This has been discussed here before, if I recall correctly.

There was an article in the WSJ last year that examined legacy admits at the Top-25 schools. ND is among the most preferential to legacy among all the schools.


The article I link may be behind a pay-wall. I subscribe to WSJ so I can't tell if this is one of the open-access stories or not.


I think the statistic was that the % of legacies is higher
by 1NDGal  (2019-03-18 15:15:04)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

than at other schools.

I’ll try to find that ND graphic from last year, which I think shows the # of legacy applicants and % of the class who are legacies. Without those figures the degree of preference is impossible to measure.


I think the word "preferential" is not appropriate here
by ufl  (2019-03-18 14:33:14)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

It doesn't say that legacy applicants have a greater chance of admission than a non-legacy applicant for a given level of credentials. It says that the portion of all legacy applicants admitted is much greater than the portion of all non-legacy applicants admitted.

This might be a measure of loyalty. That is, for ND compared to other schools, a greater number of highly qualified sons and daughters apply.

The article mentions this as a problem for achieving ethnic and economic diversity (which it is). It doesn't attempt to assess whether legacy applicants get preferential treatment.


Ok, I agree the article does not say that
by NavyJoe  (2019-03-18 14:45:42)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

However, I believe that to the extent an apples-to-apples comparison is possible, if two applicants have the same credentials, the legacy candidate is going to have a greater chance of admission. I am skeptical that the bona fides of the legacy pool are statistically superior to those of the non-legacy applicant pool to justify the 2x admission acceptance rate.


You can be skeptical, but that isn't data. *
by NDWahoo  (2019-03-18 18:09:28)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


In 2015, Legacy admit rate was 45%...20% for non-legacy (link)
by NavyJoe  (2019-03-18 18:24:22)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I doubt ND can, or would, offer more granular data than that.


that shows admit rates, not preferential treatment
by NDWahoo  (2019-03-19 09:13:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

As others have said, one explanation would be that high achieving legacies tend to apply to Notre Dame at a higher rate than the high achieving general population.


I don't have the data but I'm not so sure you're correct
by ufl  (2019-03-18 14:49:37)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

One factor that might be relevant is that I'm pretty sure the "bubble" is rather "deep". That is, there is a large number of applicants in the range from just below to just above the cutoff for admission. Thus a slight advantage to anything (including legacy status) could lead to a significant change in the mix of accepted applicants.


IIRC, it's openly admitted to be a consideration.
by doolinbanjos  (2019-03-18 13:05:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I highly doubt that admissions would consider it to be a negative consideration. Thus, if it is openly admitted to be consideration, it is a positive consideration.

Whether or not there is an appreciable difference in qualifications, I guess I can't answer.


As I allude to below, I think what you have to remember is
by Tex Francisco  (2019-03-18 13:41:54)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

that there is almost no difference between the last 500-1000 kids that get in and the first 3000-5000 who don't quite get in. When you're comparing otherwise indistinguishable applicants, I suspect it's a big advantage. It's not that legacies get in with lesser qualifications. It's that for those whose qualifications would otherwise make their admission a coin flip, they get to play with a weighted coin.


I think it still gets to the same place.
by doolinbanjos  (2019-03-18 14:45:16)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

You need to be higher than the middle of the pack (of admitted students) if you are not a legacy (or athlete or other favored class).


I suspect that the difference betweeen the admitted Legacy
by 3rdSt  (2019-03-18 12:17:22)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

students and the general pool is remarkably small. It would be very easy for ND to ‘eliminate’ Legacy preference, and still have 20-25% Legacy students. At the level of admittances that ND has, its rarely test scores and GPA that differentiate students (because they’re generally all very similar) but things like institutional fit and diversity that make the last bit of difference.


It wouldn't shock me if legacies were actually
by Tex Francisco  (2019-03-18 12:45:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

over represented in the top 20% of most ND classes. I knew more than a few legacies who probably would have been at MIT, Princeton, etc. but for ND being their "family" school.

I'm guessing the majority of legacies are right in the middle though. If you were to rank all 20,000 applicants to ND, I'm guessing the kids ranked between 2500 and 8000 are almost indistinguishable, but only 1300 of the 5500 kids in this band are going to get in. This is where being a legacy probably helps. Also, I'm guessing applying early admission gives one an advantage, and legacies are probably more likely to apply early.


A legacy kid applying REA (early) signals to ND...
by domer  (2019-03-18 16:07:55)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

...intent to enroll if accepted, which is one of the main mechanisms that ND Admissions has at its disposal to manage the yield rate at about 55-57% every year.

In last years REA pool, 2/3 of the accepted students ended up enrolling. I'd wager that an REA Legacy kid who gets accepted probably yields at 80% minimum.


One aspect of this
by pmac98  (2019-03-18 12:01:57)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

is that while everyone nods along with ideas of "no legacies" and "rich people shouldn't get preferential treatment"; in reality, less advantaged applicants WANT to get in and rub shoulders with rich folks.

Maybe not ND as much, but half the reason to go to Harvard or Yale is to build connections with rich people that you wouldn't ordinarily have the opportunity to do so. Maybe your roommate's dad will fund your startup because he's obscenely wealthy. If your roommate's dad is just some working schmuck, where's the connection to be made?

If everyone got in on test scores and high school GPA alone, these places would no longer serve that purpose.

A bit of chicken and the egg, I think.