I had zero problems with the Moderna vaccine. My docs, along with the research I did, all led me to the same place - the active virus and the vaccine train your immune system to defend against different aspects of the physical virus. That was enough convincing for me.
I was diagnosed with COVID 3 days after my first shot. CDC guidance is
"Vaccination of people with known current SARS-CoV-2 infection should be deferred until the person has recovered from the acute illness (if the person had symptoms) and they have met criteria to discontinue isolation. This recommendation applies to people who experience SARS-CoV-2 infection before receiving any vaccine dose and those who experience SARS-CoV-2 infection after the first dose of an mRNA vaccine but before receipt of the second dose."
I am now 17 days past diagnosis, I have no symptoms any more and thus I am beyond the 10 day isolation period. I am supposed to get my second dose tomorrow and my doctor is telling me I need to wait 90 days and start all over again. He is directly contradicting the current CDC guidance and parroting the old guidance.
Any thoughts?
Once the vaccine series is started, you complete it if out of isolation.
If you get covid prior to vaccination, you used to have rec to wait 30 days to start the vaccine, unless you had monoclonal antibodies, in which case it's 90 days.
Edit to add: now, recommending get vaccine as soon as virus is cleared, not 30 days.
like plasma, antibodies, etc. Then wait 90 days.
If it was just a run-of-the-mill recovery at home, I think you're right and the doctor is wrong.
Obviously not a doc so can't give you advice. Seek a second opinion? Not sure why he would give you that advice. Our doctor told us get it as soon as we are 1) out of isolation and 2) feeling well enough to do so. I think that is the official CDC stance from my understanding as well.
I think a lot of doctors are recommending that, if you’ve had it and haven’t yet received your first dose, you wait until 90 days have passed since your diagnosis, not because anything bad would happen to you if you don’t, but simply because you have immunity for at least that long, and vaccines are hard to come by, so it’s better to not take someone else’s spot right now and help us try to reach herd immunity more quickly.
But stopping/starting over after you’ve already received your first dose because you had Covid between the first and second dose is strange and I don’t think at all in line with CDC guidelines.
...based on the same recommendations you've been reading.
Side effects seemed inline with general population. Nothing for the first dose. For the second doese whole body soreness and tiredness lasting a day for my mom, who had more severe symptoms during her infection. My dad, who only lost his smell and taste during his infection, had no side effects to the vaccine other than arm soreness.
I was particularly happy my dad got it since it wasn't clear to me if his relatively easy course was due to pre-existing immunity or just a light viral load.
when he got the vaccine? Did he notice any change afterwards?
His taste is slowly coming back. Chocolate still tastes off, which has been the biggest negative.
My doctor wanted me to wait 90 days, but I saw other reports that was only if you had had plasma treatments which I had not.
I had the same mild symptoms after the shot that I had from when I got COVID but not as long.
Unless there is a work related requirement, it seems that once your body has recovered, then your immune system has already effectively done everything the vaccine was created to do.
Obviously, research is still ongoing for both natural and vaccine immunity, but early this year they were saying immunity is still robust after 8 months.
Good to hear you guys are on the mend.
Basically, the amount of protection provided by natural immunity depends on a lot of factors, and there are questions about protections against variants.
Besides all that, we anticipate some travel this summer and expect to need proof of vaccination.
Data from the Novavax trial indicated that people with antibodies from the original Wuhan strain of the virus were not well protected from the new strains especially the South Africa variant.
People who had COVID Classic in the spring of 2020 catching the SA variant later.
I would talk to her doctor. That is what I did. I followed my doctor's advice.
Google and the internet are not proxies for physicians, who know medicine in the context of an individual patient.
She's getting it, upon the advice of her physician. Just curious how it may have went for folks who were in a similar situation.
Did your doctor recommend you get it or wait?
I did not ask why. This was in February/early March when vaccines were slowly being rolled out
How can we give passports out based on vaccination, but not infection? Do we really know that a newly developed vaccine with no long term study is any better than immunity from infection? If we insist on the crazy notion of passports, why are they not at least treated equally?
just like people are showing their vaccine card. However that's not the messaging at all so I got the vaccine in case there's any fun things I want to do that I need it for. Had the second dose on Tuesday, was in bed with chills yesterday and am back to work today feeling 98% normal.
...but what data are you basing your agreement on that shows the effectiveness and longevity of natural immunity to COVID-19?
If it's out there, I'd certainly love to read it, but I'm not aware of anything definitive on COVID-19 re-infection over time, whereas I know that the immunity developed from the vaccines is being continuously studied.
site says that reinfection is "rare"...to me, rare is 1% or less which would make the natural antibodies 99% effective against reinfection. Certainly they are 75% effective which would be greater than one of the vaccines on the market.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19#:~:text=The%20immune%20systems%20of%20more,lasting%20immune%20memories%20after%20vaccination.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfection.html
When covid first came out, herd immunity was talked about as "70% of the population has to have had it." Now, only the vaccine is a way to have herd immunity. I call BS on that and I think it's spin for messaging for people to get the vaccine. I understand why, there's a ton of people out there who say "I 'know' I had it way back when" which is also most likely total BS and they should be getting the vaccine.
Regardless, I have had covid and have now completed both shots so I don't want to wear a stupid mask anymore and I want to go to a Red Wings game.
They already have tens of thousands of people enrolled in a study and all they have to do is continue to follow up and track infection rates.
It seems much more challenging to create statistically significant data from the hundreds of thousands of people who have had natural infections with a bunch of variables, though I'm sure it is being studied somehow by someone?
I plan to get my 2nd shot next week as scheduled. I'm not personally worried about the very rare complications from the vaccines and I'll deal with a day of feeling crappy to ensure that I'm as immune as I can possibly be.
But that really has nothing to do with why we would give a passport to someone with a vaccine but not natural immunity. We have what, maybe 6 months of data on the vaccines? What about these vaccines make them better than any other vaccine in that we believe they give better protection than acquired immunity?
...or at least, that it lasts a minimum time that we have not yet reached.
The six months will, hopefully, get pushed to seven, then eight. If it eventually runs out, the ongoing studies will show it, and it's likely that a booster shot will be all that is needed renew it.
I don't know if we have any idea how long natural immunity lasts, or whether it is variable based on an individual infection, because I'm not sure it's been effectively studied.
If I may ask, why do you want to avoid being vaccinated?
I just don't particularly see the need at this point.
Admittedly it does give me pause that vaccines are being pushed so hard, not in general, but over everything we supposedly knew about acquired immunity.
I don't recall seeing any definitely information surrounding the duration or effectiveness of natural immunity, other than the fact that re-infections, while rare, have occurred.
Are there studies out there than pinpoint this information that I'm unaware of?
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but everything I've read pre-Covid, even from the CDC, has stated that while obviously riskier, immunity is more robust from an infection than a vaccine. Why has this changed so quickly?
I don't know that I've ever given it much thought, but my understanding is that natural immunity is extremely variable between people, and certainly between different viruses
We've been able to essentially eliminate some diseases with childhood vaccines/booster shots. Yet we can't completely stop the flu, and we can't do anything about the common cold.
I am unaware of any consensus surrounding the general efficacy or effectiveness of vaccines vs. natural immunity taken as a whole. I'm not even sure such a conclusion is possible.
Isn't this the reason why it takes so long to develop and study vaccines?
From Childrens' Hospital of Philly: https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/immune-system-and-health
From Michigan's Department of Health with citations to CDC: https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdch/Waiver_Ed_Natural_Immunity_479884_7.pdf
I agree that immunity is likely variable and difficult to study.
From the 1st article:
"However, when scientists are designing vaccines, they determine the smallest amount of virus or bacteria needed to generate a protective immunologic response. In this situation, more is not necessarily better."
A stronger immmune response to an infection doesn't necessarily imply "better" because vaccines are specifically developed to minimize the side effects (feeling sick) of the immune response while still conferring immunity.
The larger point is that, with a novel virus, no one knows, and we shouldn't be making recommendations based on assumptions that have not yet been studied.
Doesn't that also make the case that we shouldn't prioritize vaccine immunity vs. acquired immunity if and when we issue passports?
It’s being continuously studied in the continuing trials.
Your statement that natural immunity is usually “better” than vaccine induced immunity relies on a pretty big assumption that this is also true for COVID.
I’m not certain if natural immunity is being studied the same way as vaccine induced immunity.. I suspect it is, but it’s more challenging and, as far as I know, we don’t have any clinical results at all similar to what we have from the vaccine trial studies.
If we do, I’d love to read about them and have the guidance change.
but taken directly from the scientists who published those articles, based on what I assume is 100+ years of study.
I don't think relying on that is any bigger assumption regarding Covid than it is to project the current Covid trials into the future. To be clear, I'm not arguing against the vaccines. I just think it's ludicrous to potentially base passports on them but not to consider acquired immunity as well.
They are updating the guidance every month based on the ongoing results. I think they first announced 3 months or 4 months of immunity, and theyve revised that guidance now up to 6 months, I believe.
At some point, a statistically significant number of people in the trial may start to contract COVID, and that will tell us that immunity wanes in that timeframe. I assume they're then test boosters.
On you statements on natural immunity, the issue isn't with who is saying it.
The issues are:
1)The word "usually."
2)Defining a stronger immune system response as "better". It does not follow that the continuing immunity is necessarily stronger, and the statement I quoted from your article in my last post speaks directly to that point.
The only reason that one would need to include natural immunity in any sort of vaccine "passport" (which I'm against anyway) is for someone who does not want to get vaccinated, isn't it? Otherwise, they simply need to go get the shot and the point is moot.
Only residual symptom is some congestion for both of us (as well as the taste/smell thing). Kids are doing well (daughter with same congestion issue, son with taste/smell).
But I feel pretty close to 100%. Energy levels aren't awesome, but not bad.
Having never experienced it, I’m interested in your thoughts on close to 100% being described as having some congestion, no taste and no smell. It’s kinda hard to imagine...eating and drinking and it all just tasting like water?
Glad you all are doing well.
I can still "taste" in the sense I can detect sweetness, sour, and bitter. So a cup of coffee "tastes" like bitter water. A glass of orange juice tastes like slightly sweet water. It's hard to describe exactly what it's like when you can only detect this sort of "core" tastes. Bitterness literally all by itself is weird.
Most food, you can sort of detect what you're eating, but really just based on texture or some level of saltiness or bitterness. Everything is incredibly bland. Some things are downright gross. I tried to take a sip of bourbon and it's just the burn of alcohol and nothing else.
I'm a person who likes food (maybe too much). I've lost 12 pounds in the last two weeks because eating has almost no appeal. Even when I'm hungry, I'll only make it about halfway through what I normally eat before I just don't want to eat anymore.
The lack of smell is really, really weird. I can put my face inches away from a bowl of garlic and deeply inhale and not get even a hint of garlic. Literally nothing. Sucks.
I'm dealing with it alright and am definitely anxious for it to come back, but I can see how some people would have mental difficulty handling it. I underappreciated how much the sense of smell adds to your day-to-day life. The scent of your kids hair when you give them a kiss, the smell of fresh rain, pulling on a clean t-shirt, breakfast cooking in the morning -- lots of little things that are small joys that are just totally gone.
Do not recommend.
For her, chocolate is the worst. She says it tastes like chocolate, minus all of the sugar, with a bit of rubber added to it.
Lots of things smell like car exhaust. It's miserable. But hopefully it will clear up soon...
as from as the ansomnia goes. Seems like most people get it back to relative normal levels within a few (2-3) weeks. Then there are others who it takes longer, and others still who have that weird side effect where stuff smells terrible (like garbage, or in your daughter's case, like car exhaust).
I feel for her. She's been dealing with this a lot longer than me, and to be honest, I'm really sick of it already.
I hope it returns for her soon.
and she was told to wait 90 days before getting vaccinated.
I'm not sure, but I don't believe this was a concern for her health. I think it was because she was thought not to need it as much as non-infected recipient.
But you're correct that was not for health reasons, but because the protection from having the virus is thought to last at least 90 days. The guidance now is definitely for her to get the vaccine -- just curious if anyone else got theirs *this* soon after being sick.