Recruiting question.
by Domer84 (2017-03-20 16:15:12)

I was having a conversation about football recruiting with some coworkers (all grads of various SEC schools). One of them had been looking at the recruiting ratings and was commenting on the fact that Notre Dame was ranked 10th this year. He was asking why Notre Dame only had 21 recruits. His SEC school regularly signs 28 to 32 kids each year. I didn't know the answer to this question.

As far as I can tell, the NCAA only allows you to sign 25 kids each year regardless of your need, correct? So, how do other schools regularly sign more than that? For example, Michigan signed 29 recruits this year.They can't enroll them all, can they? Is it that they can only give out 25 scholarships? Of course, they're still limited to 85 total scholarships so I don't see how they make the math work.I know some schools, like Alabama, ship kids off to JUCO and then bring them back for their junior year when there's been attrition in the class. But if you are regularly over signing five kids every class, that's 120 kids in four classes while only 85 can be on scholarship.

The guys I was talking with didn't know how it was done. But, as one pointed out, "It's the SEC. If you ain't cheatin', you ain't trying hard enough."

Early enrollees count towards last year's class.
by rockmcd  (2017-03-20 16:40:08)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

So if you sign 32 players in February '17, and 7 of them enroll in the Spring of the 2016-17 school year, then the recruiting class for the 2017-18 will only have 25 scholarships.

As for the recruits who enrolled in the 2016-2017 school year, they would need to have 18 or fewer in order to have space for these 7. I don't know whether they are allowed to factor in attrition from the class that signed in Feb '16.

1 year scholarships are another factor
by NDCuse  (2017-03-21 16:42:24)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Some teams routinely dump players who do not live up to projection whether it is by declining to renew a scholarship, abusing medical retirement rule, and/or applying disproportionate discipline.

Urban has routinely bounced a few bench players each Spring for undisclosed violations of team rules. Urban then pounds his chest as a disciplinarian and his team conveniently slides into under the 85-man roster limit.

They also "gray shirt". Thats where they stash a
by 84david  (2017-03-21 08:54:57)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

recruit at a nearby JC for a year and it doesnt count
against a roster spot. They can also use that
as a "tryout" to see if they will dominate at JC football.
If not, they just let them go at no cost to Alabama,.
Whoops, I mean their school.

Grey shirts can enroll at their university or at a JC
by irishkey9  (2017-03-21 15:41:46)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

but must take fewer than 12 hours in the classroom. 12 hours will trigger their eligibility clock, and they cannot practice or play with the team during the fall semester. So, when they enroll in the university in the Spring, they have the full time to compete. They would not be playing in the fall for a JC to be evaluated.

Most grey shirts are enrolled at a JC
by Doggie  (2017-03-21 16:59:16)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

It serves no purpose to take a year off from football unless a guy is injured. It is actually a bad idea.

And yes those schools that use grey shirting often do use performance at a JC as an evaluation. It is not unusual for grey shirts not to be given subsequent scholies at the school they were grey shirting for.

The problem for many of the kids who end up grey shirting is that they are frequently given late notice that there is 'no room at the inn' giving them little option to pursue scholarships at other schools. And they are inherently the "2nd choice" (when academics are not the reason) of the schools since if they were better they would not have been asked to be a grey shirt. They are hung out to dry late in the game. Why these kids end up back at those schools since they have really been told to 'go away for a year and we'll see if we still like you' is a real mystery to me.

Personal opinion is that it is a despicable practice that the NCAA should end. The schools that use it as a habit try to pass it off as helping the athletes when all the schools are trying to do is help themselves.

Some other reasons
by SixShutouts66  (2017-03-20 20:22:50)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

1. Some of the signees don't meet NCAA qualification standards and never enter the school.

2. Higher end football schools may lose 3-4 players after junior year to the NFL

3. Academic casualties (for some reason players not performing well on the football field predominate here)

4. Domestic violence and sexual predators (see note above). Note does not apply to Baylor and perhaps USC

5, As noted below, practice squad members with little hope of playing when the game is on the line, since until recently most schools did not guarantee 4 years.

6. Injuries (again more prevalent with members listed above).

Bottom line is that their 85 players on scholarship have fewer mistakes. We carry some players that we judged their potential incorrectly or they never developed.

Personally I don't want to go the SEC route.

Agree, valid points here. Also, more directly to the
by cmhirish  (2017-03-21 13:34:36)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

question of how other schools sign more than the limit: verification of compliance with scholarship limitations is made at the beginning of preseason practice - in the fall.

Therefore how many kids are inked on signing day in February becomes more or less irrelevant, since the school has about six months to make the numbers work. During this time, programs experience natural attrition (aforementioned transfers, injuries, academic casualties, etc) - and less scrupulous forms of involuntary attrition, i.e. the medical hardship.

A medical hardship effectively ends a playing career, but allows a student to remain on scholarship while not counting against the athletic scholarship limits. It was intended as a win-win; a legitimately injured kid can still earn a degree, while the school frees up an athletic scholarship for another able-bodied student.

The obvious potential for abuse is when an injury is not necessarily career-ending: if a coach doesn't believe the player is going to be capable of making significant contributions, they may force the student to take a medical hardship. This allows the kid to complete his degree - but it also frees up that athletic scholarship for the next kid. Essentially this is kicking the kid off the team - even in cases where the player is, or will become, healthy enough to play. Google will yield plenty of ugly stories about “oversigning” and “medical hardship” - results will likely not surprise anyone.

I knew that.
by Domer84  (2017-03-20 17:51:02)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Under your scenario, the previous class had to have significantly fewer recruits. They never seem to have less than 25 recruits per year at any of the schools. We seem to be the only school that ever gets less than 25 kids.

At some point, you can't keep back counting this year's recruits as last year's unless you are also kicking a bunch of kids off the team from the previous recruiting class.So if you had 25 kids last year and you have 30 signed this year but can enroll five in January, how do you make space for those five unless you kick five existing kids off the team? Do they do all of this through gray shirting?

I can't imagine that it will ever be possible for Notre Dame to get back into the national picture if we bring in 4 to 6 fewer scholarship athletes each year than all of the other power teams.One of the reasons that Alabama is so good is that they can stockpile talent. This was the recipe for success for Tom Osborne at Nebraska where good high school football players would forgo scholarships at other schools and just enroll at Nebraska with the hopes that they could walk on the team and get a scholarship. Of course, that was also a way Rockne built his power houses.When you have six kids vying for every position, the competition makes for an excellent product on the field.

National Champ Clemson only had 14 kids in their 2017 class
by frickerdog  (2017-03-21 08:44:17)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Washington, also a playoff school, had 18.
Ohio State had 21.

The only school in the playoff who signed more than 25 this year was Alabama, which signed 26 (16 enrolled, 10 signed) and has 3 "hard commits" who have not yet signed (likely non-qualifiers).

So, your statement that we are the only school that ever gets less than 25 kids is incorrect.

I stand corrected.
by Domer84  (2017-03-21 10:00:15)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I guess I get a lot of SEC news here and not much else.

Even for the SEC I think that's way overstated.
by tdiddy07  (2017-03-21 11:30:01)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

In 2017, five schools had more than 25. Bama, UGA, A&M, Tenn, Arkansas.
In 2016, only one. South Carolina.
In 2015, six. Tenn, UGA, Auburn, A&M, Miss St., South Carolina.
In 2014, four, Bama, Tenn, Kentucky, Missouri.
In 2013, Six. Florida, LSU, Ole Miss, A&M, UGA, Vandy.
In 2012, three. Bama, Miss St, Kentucky.

These are different schools each time, Bama, UGA, A*M, Tenn. three times. So. Car., Miss St, Kentucky twice. Auburn, Florida, Arkansas, Vandy, Ole Miss, Missouri, LSU only once.

I didn't track everything but I saw a lot of 19, 20, 21, and 22 in there for other years at a lot of schools.

Every school has natural attrition of transfers for academic reasons, including ND of late. SEC, which takes minimal qualifiers, may have more of these. The better schools have a number of juniors that go pro. Many of these SEC schools have players that never qualify.

I think many people complain that these schools don't renew scholarships. But I haven't seen any evidence that that is actually true. THe only article that approached it was about Bama medical redshirts and transfer pressure. But I'm not aware of any widespread practice of actually not renewing scholarships. Though they may not award fifth years to players, just as ND doesn't.

Other schools have higher attrition than ND
by Doggie  (2017-03-20 22:01:00)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

By and large, ND's major "disadvantage' in recruiting is it is primarily a 4 year school with virtually the highest graduation rate year in and year our. The graduation rate says it all. Unless ND changes it's mission in this regard, you aren't going to see any 25 man classes for ND.

Also, ND only rarely will force kids to leave because they haven't performed "up to expectations." An ND kid who doesn't stays and graduates.

Other schools chase kids off all the time.

There is also the factor of guys moving on to the pros which is definitely an advantage of success. Gray shirting, another thing that ND doesn't do, also is a major advantage. But that isn't nearly as big a factor as kids being pushed out by their programs.

All it takes is about 5 kids to leave each year and you get an extra 20 kids every 4 years.

i think we have training table now. *
by 84david  (2017-03-22 16:05:16)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Those schools give one year scholarships.
by Barney68  (2017-03-20 19:53:39)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Attrition happens when a kid does not perform up to expectations.