BK-coached teams have not won vs end-of-season
by nd71 (2019-07-15 11:19:00)

top ten ranked teams. NB ND's 2012/3 wins were vacated.

Let's lower the bar:

Have BK's ND or UC teams beaten a National Championship winning coach? No.

Have BK's ND or UC teams beaten a team whose head coach got his team to the Championship game? No.

IIRC the three previous ND FB HCs have wins vs one or both of these categories of FB coaches.

Nice legacies, Savvy and Father Jacks.






BK beat Stoops, didn't he? *
by Brahms  (2019-07-16 19:39:16)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


2012 W was vacated *
by nd71  (2019-07-17 20:43:30)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Relax. We are 40-1 to win the NC this yr. UM is 10-1.... *
by Wolfetone  (2019-07-15 13:04:16)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


FWIW, ND is 50-1, Michigan 12-1, per Westgate Las Vegas. (link)
by G.K.Chesterton  (2019-07-15 13:40:10)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


50-1, 100K-1...what's the difference? Ain't happening w/ BK *
by ndzippy  (2019-07-16 06:49:24)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Most telling stat is the lack of major bowl victories
by Jvan  (2019-07-15 12:38:32)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

This is most definitively where Kelly's system and coaching acumen is exposed.


Still waiting for his guy...
by Brahms  (2019-07-16 19:38:50)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

...a Tron, plastic grass, reduction in speaking engagements, looser admission standards, etc.


ND: Zero (0) major bowl victories in 9,326 days. *
by G.K.Chesterton  (2019-07-15 16:40:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


14-42, 28-44, 3-30--I'd settle for a competitive loss in a..
by Scoop80  (2019-07-15 16:19:13)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

major bowl game at this point. The 1/13 NC game was worse than the final score, and one might argue that the 1/16 Fiesta was, too.

The 1/06 Fiesta was the only time since 1/96 that ND has been w/in 7 pts in Q4 of a major bowl. That really needs to change.


But NC-caliber coaches like our assistants often enough
by Brahms  (2019-07-16 19:40:15)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

So, we got that going in the right direction.


Truthfully, that's a solid goal for this season.
by PeteatND  (2019-07-15 15:35:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

If Kelly is truly improving as a coach, albeit at a glacial pace that wouldn't be tolerated by any AD other than one as blatantly beholden to him as Savvy is, he should be able to show it in big games. First and foremost, I'd hope to see that in the UM and Georgia games, which are both opportunities for night game wins on the road against top 10 opposition - which can be easily counted on one hand over the past 25 years.

But you'd also hope to see that in January bowl games, where we have zero wins over a multi-decade time frame. The lack of them has been a lead weight for our recruiting prospects, and getting one would be an indication that Kelly might be able to end his career on an upward swing (since it's now clear he'll be finishing his career in South Bend). With the holes this roster has -- RB, NT, ILB, corner depth -- a playoff run is unlikely, but 10-2 with a New Year's bowl win should be very reasonable.


Nit: Citrus Bowl win vs LSU was in January.
by SavageDragon  (2019-07-15 16:18:09)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Because apparently what I do in this thread is point out circumstances of bowl games versus LSU.

(The Citrus Bowl is, of course, not among the premier January games, and doesn't discredit your overall point.)


Geaux SavageDragon! *
by John88  (2019-07-16 09:32:45)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I guess.....
by BigNDfan  (2019-07-15 14:06:18)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

It's also where your talent level against the very top teams get exposed.


That never stopped Lou Holtz from winning bowl games *
by Jvan  (2019-07-15 17:37:35)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Surprisingly, BK's numbers look good against final top 25
by smithwick  (2019-07-15 12:15:00)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

recently, which includes 2016. The numbers include some fluff (e.g. Northwestern and Syracuse), but also some good programs/teams (e.g. USC, LSU, Michigan, Michigan St.).

Records last 3 years vs. final AP Top 25:

Swinney 14-2
Saban 14-3
Kelly 8-7
Smart 7-7
Gundy 5-5
Helton 6-7
Leach 4-5
Petersen 4-5
Fisher 6-8
Chryst 5-7
Franklin 5-7
Frost 4-6
Malzahn 6-10
Harbaugh 5-9
Mullen 3-8
Shaw 3-8
Dantonio 3-10
Fitzgerald 2-8
Ferentz 2-9
Patterson 2-9


Kelly is 2-12 per teams ending the in the AP Top Ten,
by G.K.Chesterton  (2019-07-15 13:50:01)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

per AlexanderBess.com, which is the more telling stat.

Note: why does AlexanderBess.com show 12 losses against final top 10 teams when those stats only show 7 losses against final top 25 teams? Something's wrong somewhere - could someone check my numbers? (I had to go to the Bess site on my cell phone because it's blocked at work.)


The 8-7 vs top 25 stat was only limited to past 3 years. *
by rockmcd  (2019-07-15 13:52:29)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Thank you. *
by G.K.Chesterton  (2019-07-15 13:53:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Anybody got the same chart for Top 10? Top 15?
by ndzippy  (2019-07-15 13:45:20)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I suspect BK wouldn't be so high up on the list if we trimmed the fat a bit.


I don't but to give some context in the past two seasons
by Carlos Huerta  (2019-07-15 15:30:51)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Smart has road wins over teams that finished the season ranked 11 and 12 and neutral site wins over teams finishing 3, 7, and 10. He also lost the national title to Bama in overtime and held the lead on them in the fourth quarter of the SEC Title game before losing by 7. Give Kelly his entire nine year resume of away/neutral games and have him stack his best seven performances up against those.


I think we are well aware that USC is in a swoon, you homer
by ACross  (2019-07-15 12:57:16)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

LSU is coached by a a preposterously stupid man whose offense is in constant disarray.

We all know Kelly can't beat truly elite teams. I credit him with the Oklahoma win in 2012.


Erudite *
by smithwick  (2019-07-15 14:28:38)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


FWIW, our 2017 win over USC kept them out of the Playoff.
by rockmcd  (2019-07-15 13:42:24)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

We beat them by 35 points. And 2018 Michigan was in national championship contention until the final week of the season. Those were great wins.

But I agree that those weren't truly elite teams - Helton and Harbaugh and Kelly are all passengers on the same ROY bus with an 0-for-forever record against Saban/Meyer/Swinney.


What's the definition of "elite"?
by Twinkie the Kid  (2019-07-16 09:30:06)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Not ND. I get that. But who is elite? Alabama and Clemson, certainly. Ohio State under Urban Meyer. Consistently, those are/were three truly elite teams. I'm not sure anyone else qualifies. Other than one close game against Clemson in 2015, ND has had their asses handed to them by all three.

Anyone else? Georgia? Oklahoma?


Yes, those three. GA and OK knocking on the door.
by rockmcd  (2019-07-16 12:29:25)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

If someone wants to consider Georgia and Oklahoma elite, I won't put up much of an argument, but I'd like to see them beat someone besides each other in a Playoff game before crowning them.

It'll certainly be interesting to see what happens with Ohio St over the next couple years. Will they take a step back like USC did after Pete Carroll left, or will they get even better like Oklahoma did after Stoops left (so far at least)?


I don't know about Helton
by jt  (2019-07-15 14:54:47)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

but for some reason I always got the impression that Harbaugh's teams play tight against good competition, including in SF. I like him as a coach, though I think that he's nuts, but he's probably wound too tight for the big game atmosphere.

The one year in SF that they made the Super Bowl they were able to overcome some stuff because they needed to open it up on offense with Justin Smith hurt on defense. Prior to that, they would seemingly just try to keep it close and win with defense, and they did the same formula the next two years as well.


Beat Bob Stoops
by fresnodomer  (2019-07-15 12:14:40)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

and yes the games were vacated but the players still played, the coaches still coached and game-planed and beat OU. Plus, I dare you ask any player from that team if the games counted!


With ineligible players. So he cheated. So it doesn’t count. *
by TAR  (2019-07-17 00:44:54)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


In 2014 ND beat LSU coached by Les Miles.
by SavageDragon  (2019-07-15 11:35:09)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I don't claim this as some sort of mammoth accomplishment -- LSU was 8-5 on the year and finished 5th in the SEC West -- but Miles did win a title at LSU and take them to another championship game, so that would seem to contradict your claims inside your post.


Missed that. Thx. BK has a signature career victory. *
by nd71  (2019-07-15 11:36:24)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


In the Music City Bowl, sounds about right *
by Stonebreaker42  (2019-07-15 12:24:18)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Hey, let's bring back those 3 previous coaches! *
by Los Irish  (2019-07-15 11:30:08)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post