Had a Wisconsin alum ask me why ND doesn’t join the B1G.
by Boomer80 (2019-10-17 13:27:27)

He fully understands that Michigan sucks. But he doesn’t know or understand the history between ND and the Big Ten, even after I explained it. The way he sees it, this is modern times and it would be better for ND to join the real world and do what is geographically and financially sensible - join. He has a point in one sense, but has no clue as to the depth of the emotional recoil that exists at such a thought. After all, we have standards!
It did make me wonder, though, why we never play Wisconsin. I would have thougjt that Barry Alvarez would have initiated something along those lines but I guess not.


Discarding things/traditions that make us
by cj  (2019-10-18 10:51:39)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

unique is reckless capitulation to the norm. The “homogenization” of Notre Dame football
carries great risk. saucy/others have proven that they will “dip their toes” and sell out. It will be a dark day if they dive all in and ND football’s iconic tradition of football independence is fully lost.

PS On a good note we have gotten to the playoffs and a NC game in this new era. So, the PTB will not be able to sell it as necessary to pursue NCs.


Population growth continues most prominently in the SE, West
by VaDblDmr  (2019-10-17 23:25:02)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

and Texas. Population in the Midwest is stagnant. In the long run, I don't see that nailing our colors to that mast would be in our interest.


Talk to Nebraska
by SEE  (2019-10-17 23:14:40)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

It would swallow much of ND’s identity. Not to mention the conference is bigoted.

The ACC is the perfect partial conference for ND. 5 games in the heart of recruiting land + national games + Stanford,USC,Navy.


Even those who support the ACC alliance
by ACross  (2019-10-18 09:51:39)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Believe 5 games is too many.


I'm not so sure that you're right there
by jt  (2019-10-18 12:58:21)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I think a whole bunch over on the homer board(s) think that 5 is just fine and would support saucy Jack if he went all in with the ACC.


I fully agree with your thoughts, especially
by ChestnutND  (2019-10-18 02:11:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

about Nebraska who? I just wish we could renegotiate our ACC commitment to 4 games annual average. Five is causing our schedules in some years to be terribly weak and it interferes with our independent scheduling. Just my 2 cents.


I agree - four would be much better
by acrossdmiddle  (2019-10-18 05:34:58)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

ACC football hasn’t held up its end of the bargain with FSU, Miami and VT all sucking hind tit since we started our arrangement.


17 years ago I wrote a letter to Terry Bowden...
by Kbyrnes  (2019-10-17 22:51:16)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

...in response to some things he said on an abcsports.com piece (12/10/2002) with respect to ND. The first is irrelevant to the current thread (West Virginia fans were miffed that the Gator Bowl picked ND instead of WVU, and Bowden, as an alum of WVU, was pushing the idea that the pick was unfair).

The second thing he said was that ND should be in a conference. I actually got a polite response back. Anyway, the following distilled my thoughts on the matter, and I think I still believe them. (I may have posted this here some years ago.)

_______________________________________________________________________
Why hasn't Notre Dame football joined a conference?

This isn't a simple issue. There are many factors explaining it, some of which are clearly pecuniary, but others are historical or related to traditional opponents on ND's schedule.

The "natural" conference for Notre Dame is the Big Ten. The other Big Ten schools in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Wisconsin, etc., surround South Bend, and ND traditionally plays more teams from the Big Ten than from any other single conference (although this year, it was 3 Big Ten teams and three Big East teams).

Back in the golden years (pre-WW II) Notre Dame tried on multiple occasions to join the Big Ten but was rejected every time. The reasons aren't absolutely clear (a Catholic school joining secular colleges?), but when ND went knocking, the door stayed shut.

Now, in more recent times, the Big Ten made overtures to ND, but by that time Notre Dame was accustomed to its position as a national independent. During the 30's and 40's Notre Dame's athletic department carried on Rockne's effort to arrange a national schedule, playing (among others) Stanford and USC in the West, Army and Navy in the East, Oklahoma in the south, as well as the more proximate Big Ten schools in the Midwest.

As a result of this history, Notre Dame's football "conference," for many years, has been national, not regional, in scope. This goes hand in hand, to some extent, with Notre Dame's gradual development into the leading Catholic university in the country, a factor that transcends regional boundaries. This might not be directly relevant to football scheduling, except for the fact that it has generated a nationwide fan base (for example, see Steve Rushin's article in SI at the end of November, "Planet Notre Dame"), the so-called "subway alumni."

This is probably annoying to many fans from other schools, but it's not a unique concept. In the NFL, we've heard for years about "America's Team," although it's not always clear who that is! Back when the Celtics ruled the NBA, they drew more fans at away games than most other teams did (this was repeated by the Lakers and Bulls in more recent years). The "up" teams get more favorable press, more analysis, sell more merchandise, and so forth. Is this "unfair"? Of course not.

Some who call for ND to join a football conference seem to assume that being an independent is a "lack" of something, which can be fulfilled by joining a conference. But here's what Notre Dame already has: a national schedule, allowing its fans in various parts of the country to see it play; traditional scheduling relationships with a number of teams that would suffer if ND joined a conference; a strength of schedule that would probably suffer if it joined a conference; a national fan base that contributes to relatively stronger TV ratings in national broadcasts; the option to go to bowl games and retain all of the associated fees, without having to take only 1/10, 1/11, 1/12, or whatever it would be in a given conference; and a strong, if intangible, sense of tradition that is built largely on its national-scope, independent status.

Terry, if you were Notre Dame's AD (or President), would you give up many of these things (as you surely would have to) in order to join a conference? Well, as they say, every deal has two parts: price and terms, and I suppose anything can be made attractive enough.

But I think the argument can be made that Notre Dame, by remaining an independent, has remained true to its traditional character-and that that's a good thing.


Very good, but I fear that you lost him at “pecuniary” *
by fortune_smith  (2019-10-18 14:57:43)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I’d love to know his reply *
by golfjunkie17  (2019-10-18 07:41:40)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Brief and amicable. One interesting comment...
by Kbyrnes  (2019-10-18 09:12:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

...he made was this:

"Anytime ND wins it's good for college football and the Big East. Few college fans see the big picture, however." [Emphasis added.]

He also wrote that once Ty has a few years of recruiting under his belt all would be well at ND; the underlying premise, of course, lacked foundation.


Great letter. I'd bet Terry got a kick out of the last line. *
by SWPaDem  (2019-10-18 07:25:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Perfect summary *
by sleestaknd  (2019-10-18 07:16:07)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Excellent letter and analysis. *
by mkovac  (2019-10-18 00:15:54)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Because we don't have to.
by Revue Party  (2019-10-17 21:06:18)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

And we don't want to.


this is succinct and accurate. *
by ACross  (2019-10-18 11:26:14)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


How does he feel about socialism? *
by fontoknow  (2019-10-17 17:44:36)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


UW alum? Do you even need to ask? *
by DakotaDomer  (2019-10-17 20:35:29)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I get this question regularly here in Wisconsin
by HoundDog1973  (2019-10-17 17:41:34)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I have lived in WI for more than 40 years now, and ever since WI football became competitive (after Alvarez came) fans put this question to me as if the answer is obvious. I used to try to explain why ND should not be in the B1G now or ever but I got tired of the whole thing. Now I just say that ND has no reason to associate with any other teams, and if Wisconsin could do the same thing, go it alone as an independent, they would. That usually gets them thinking for a bit and it ends the conversation for me.


Wisconsin, as most schools are, is a very regional school.
by Tex Francisco  (2019-10-17 19:23:10)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

There's nothing wrong with that. The overwhelming majority of their students come from WI and MN, and when they graduate they return to WI or MN or maybe venture down to Chicago. The B1G West is perfect for them. ND is a very different school.


ND told me students live an average of 800 miles from ND
by btd  (2019-10-18 12:40:33)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

That stat alone is why ND should never join a conference. ND is not regional -- every other Division IA team but Stanford and maybe Duke is a regional school with a football team comprised of regional players on their roster.

Lookup any roster for any team from any power 5 conference -- you will be lucky to find 5 players that come from any state not bordering their own state (or same coast in the case of WA that pulls from "neighbor" CA).

Then layer on top of that ND fans have no desire to play the same dumbass schedule every single season. We want a rotation of different teams for 8 or more games each season. We want to play every conference -- not just a single conference.

Control. ND wants to control who we play, when, and under what terms and conditions. Only a weak minded person would ever willingly give control of anything to another person.

Our schedules already suck in comparison to what they could and should be -- largely because we stupidly agreed to 5 ACC games per year when at most we should have agreed to alternating 3 and 4 game schedules.


The academies and Northwestern are also not regional
by fortune_smith  (2019-10-18 15:14:36)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

A few others, mainly private schools, may also fall outside the categorization: BC, Wake, Vanderbilt, Rice, Tulane and possibly BYU.

Charging $70+k / year requires most of these schools to have a genuine national draw. Many wouldn’t be viable at their targeted academic profile if overly reliant on a regional draw.

The academic orientation at Georgia Tech may also move it outside of a regional characterization.


33percent of the UW student body is nonresident
by ACross  (2019-10-17 20:16:06)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

You dont know your head from your ass


Yup. Nothing pays the bills like out-of-state tuition. *
by G.K.Chesterton  (2019-10-18 00:23:53)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I believe they have a significant international/Asian demo
by ACross  (2019-10-18 09:55:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Graphic too.


More than that now.
by HoundDog1973  (2019-10-17 23:05:53)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

This year's freshman class at UW is just 50% Wisconsin residents.


Yes but half of them probably matriculate from MN
by crazychester  (2019-10-17 21:35:58)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

As they have reciprocal in state tuition. Many of the rest are from the Illinois diaspora and the balance are coasties.

Sorry Across it is as provincial a school as most others. In the Big1? (A conference of fairly regional borgs) I'd put it no better than third behind NW (big gap), UM (slightly smaller gap) then UW. Purdue and Indiana may have arguments here but...... it's Indiana


Iowa and Indiana are both in the 40 - 45% OOS range. *
by WilfordBrimley  (2019-10-17 22:09:59)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


But those are almost all Chicago kids
by crazychester  (2019-10-17 22:16:52)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Wisconsin and Michigan have coasties. Iowa and to a lesser extent, IU, do not


As noted, this is false...
by John@Indy  (2019-10-18 09:46:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

...and was false when I attended IU in the mid-1990s. I can't find a state-by-state breakdown of IU's student body, but according to promotional materials from when IU played in the Pinstripe Bowl in 2015, students from New York and New Jersey alone account for ten percent of IU-Bloomington's enrollment. It's also worth noting that a non-trivial percentage of in-state students are commuters or non-traditional students who aren't part of campus social life, so living on or near campus it feels more geographically diverse than the numbers would suggest. Of course, it doesn't compare to ND's geographical diversity, but Big Ten schools aren't the provincial backwaters you imagine. (None of this is to disagree with the main point that ND shouldn't join the Big Ten).


I would bet around 5% of IU is from Tri State
by DBCooper  (2019-10-17 22:56:26)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

My own experience from 20 years ago in a decent size Long Island public school I had 4 classmates go to IU that I can remember, one buddy go to Wisconsin and maybe 12 to 15 go to Michigan,


IU definitely has a lot of East Coast students.
by WilfordBrimley  (2019-10-17 22:22:58)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

There’s a big Chicago contingent, certainly, but they have a large NY/NJ population, especially in the Greek system and in the business school. Big Ohio contingent there as well.

Nonetheless, all of them are regional schools. I’d bet none have more than 10% from more than a state away except maybe Michigan.


Pretty much agree
by crazychester  (2019-10-17 22:26:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

The Greek system at IU has become a draw

Contrast this with nd which has CA, Ny, NJ and Florida in their top 7 or 8


It has a sizable east coast presence
by ACross  (2019-10-17 22:03:03)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Call it the Billy Joel demographic. Of course it is not as national as ND but it is a fine school with breadth and depth and some niches (real estate, banking, dairy science) that are among the top ranked.


I would also add
by jt  (2019-10-18 00:42:04)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

that the Mifflin block party is a lot of fun and they definitely have their share of coeds with questionable moral standards, which is a definite plus.


“Dairy science” *
by drinkycrow  (2019-10-17 22:25:35)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


That’s just “science”, for you. *
by golfjunkie17  (2019-10-18 07:43:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


It's all about the BS; that is,...
by Kbyrnes  (2019-10-17 23:01:58)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

...bull semen.

From Two Bulls, Nine Million Dairy Cows


It’s a real program at places like Wiscy and Cornell.
by Jeash  (2019-10-17 23:01:27)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I’m surprised that Across has heard of it.


Green Bay is big on cheese
by ACross  (2019-10-17 23:26:36)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

As in Schreiber. And a couple other giants. Most people on this board ate Schreiber products today. Or yesterday.


Not just GB of course
by JC_90_94  (2019-10-18 17:07:27)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I'm thinking of businesses with present/prior ND connections - Sargento in Plymouth and Gehl Foods in Germantown.

When the Gehl family sold the business to private equity in 2015, they gave each employee $10,000 - 5 to 401(k) and 5 in cash. Katherine (ND 1988) was the President at that time. Gehl was a pioneer in the non-refrigerated dairy industry, aka nacho cheese.

When you throw in Stayer from Johnsonville Sausage and the Miller family history, ND has beer, cheese and brats covered.



I'd call it the budding
by crazychester  (2019-10-17 22:14:42)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Socialist who didn't get into any f the Ivies, UM or Northwester demographic.

Whatever you want to call it it is noticeable,but not sizable.

I agree that it is a great school ( my godson is a proud grad and my brother a season ticket holder), but it's a regional school.


meaning they’re 100 miles away, from chicago *
by 84david  (2019-10-17 21:32:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Iike my son in law.
by BIG MAC  (2019-10-17 21:31:34)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

A NY transplant to Madison.


I don’t think that refutes his claim *
by DakotaDomer  (2019-10-17 20:36:42)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


that is the correct response
by ocdomer78  (2019-10-17 18:36:37)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

we don't have to and you do


Ask him what he sees as the benefits of being
by KeoughCharles05  (2019-10-17 17:33:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

in a conference, just generally speaking.


I'd ask him a question- who has scheduled more games vs.
by Carlos Huerta  (2019-10-17 16:08:02)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

power conference teams this decade? Then tell him you're glad ND's bye week fell on this Saturday so you can focus all your attention on the thrilling annual Wisconsin/Illinois matchup.


Because the Big Ten sucks.
by tdiddy07  (2019-10-17 15:13:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


What do you describe what the ACC does in football? *
by ACross  (2019-10-17 18:02:01)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


ACC has more national titles in last 20 and 30 year periods.
by G.K.Chesterton  (2019-10-17 18:08:55)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Example: Last 20 seasons, ACC - 5, Big Ten - 2. (Using AP)

There are other ways to measure the conference strength, of course, but this was the easiest to grab.


You can be such a dolt
by ACross  (2019-10-17 18:33:32)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

The ACC has had a grand total of 2 good teams. One of which is on a recent and unprecedented uptick. The other is probably the prizewinner of the biggest cesspool in college football and one of the NCs you cite is rightfully ours. It is beyond cavil that the ACC is the dregs if the major football conferences


It’s hard to defend the ACC’s recent performance
by acrossdmiddle  (2019-10-18 05:51:41)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Historically, it’s never been a power football conference. Since getting FSU and Miami, they have had the potential to be on par with the Big 12 and PAC-12, but they lack the depth of the Big 10 and the SEC. We shouldn’t play more than four games per year against them.


The ideal number would be 0
by ACross  (2019-10-18 11:27:16)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Practically speaking, to prop up our other sports, it would be 3.


The fewer the better *
by Acrossdmiddle  (2019-10-18 11:37:37)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


If we played five B1G teams a year in football, including
by G.K.Chesterton  (2019-10-17 21:17:00)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

cycling through the dregs like IU and Rutgers, and were in the Big Ten in everything else, including basketball, would that be better? Your answer still might be "Yes" but that's a question to ponder.


The answer to that is still the Acc
by crazychester  (2019-10-17 21:46:10)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

As

1. the schools are better fit in terms of size and mission

2. The recruiting footprint is far better for football

3. The Acc is a far better home for just about every sport

4. Whatever argument ACross has is likely solved with a H&H with Wisconsin

5.


Since when do you carry water for the Big 10? *
by enduff  (2019-10-17 20:34:50)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


The latest in a long line of personal crusades. *
by smithwick  (2019-10-18 10:10:52)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I think we're going to see some major, major changes soon
by jt  (2019-10-17 15:03:39)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

they have to get the image/likeness stuff figured out, but realistically I see it moving more towards the NFL model for playoffs, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of schools break from the NCAA and form their own superconference/league. All you really need is the top 20-30 programs and you can set it up however you want.

There are a ton of schools right now in the NCAA that are living off of the top 10-15%. I've actually been to a lot of non-Notre Dame games in the past year and it's amazing how some places are just ghost towns and likely have the same or even smaller attendance as a good D 2 school.


I’m all for ND joining a league
by DBCooper  (2019-10-17 16:51:42)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

If it’s a quasi Ivy League tier school conference. BI mentioned this the other week.

Spitballing...

East: Duke, UNC, Wake, UVA, Vanderbilt, Army, Navy, Georgia Tech

West: Stanford, Northwestern, Rice, Cal, USC, UCLA, ND, Air Force

As this is set up, 7 games you play in your group every year, 2 in other group that rotates home and away and then 3 out of conference.

I’m happy to switch out a few of these schools if need be. Tulane, Florida, or even BC could be alternates or added. You can add Hopkins for lacrosse. Perhaps add a few other schools that do not have Div 1 football, but do for other sports, like Georgetown, Nova, or William and Mary. I’m sure there are a few western schools that fit this as well.

If you really wanted to push it you could consider Texas, Wisconsin, or I guess Michigan (I like not including them as a kind of FU, but that’s me).

I’m sure there are different ways to set this up.


UNC? Hell, they should have lost their accreditation. *
by Slotts  (2019-10-17 19:05:40)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Smells like an ACC suckhole to me
by ACross  (2019-10-17 18:11:58)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

From a football perspective this collection of teams sucks balls. I have little use for most of them.


I admit on paper the football teams look weak
by DBCooper  (2019-10-17 18:47:26)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Perhaps swapping out G Tech for Florida would improve the football a bit and take out an ACC team. Unfortunately the ACC has more top rated schools than any other conference.
As I mentioned, I’m all for considering a Wisconsin or Texas as well.

I just hate the idea of joining the Big 10 and would like to see a conference that at least on the education quality is close to ND standards.

I rather stay Independent, but the NCAA is trying to force ND’s hand. If they are going to try to force a conference on us I rather it be a group of schools that make sense for ND and they help dictate what schools represent that conference. No group would be perfect.


I don’t think the doomsday scenario makes any sense.
by Bruno95  (2019-10-17 19:29:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Gameday is following ND to Ireland next year. The program prints money and draws good ratings, for a variety of conferences. College football is doing well and does better when its one independent team is successful and traveling the country. Who wants to give up their ND game so ND can play Rutgers/Minnesota/Illinois or Duke/Wake/Syracuse?

Screwing with ND’s value is not in the sport’s best interest. I don’t think it’ll happen.


The problem with that analysis
by GoDomers  (2019-10-17 23:22:55)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Is that no one gives a shit about the sport of college football. Everyone places school or conference interests above all else. Just look at the realignment that happened. They think if they can knock ND down and help themselves, they will. Without thinking twice.


Remember when Delany was trying to get GT and Carolina
by gordonbombay  (2019-10-18 10:57:27)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

To the B1G? (I don't know if this was ever confirmed, but it was out there.) It was all about trying to force ND out of the ACC and leaving them with no other choice.


jointing?
by LocalSubAlum  (2019-10-17 17:02:21)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Pot isn't legal nationwide yet.


Fixed *
by DBCooper  (2019-10-17 17:13:49)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I think it is clear there needs to be more attractive games
by Carlos Huerta  (2019-10-17 15:31:24)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

to serve the changing market. It will be interesting to see if/when/how the collective mindset of the top schools change to the point where they're willing to put together schedules that will lead to more losses than they're used to.


The date on this post is wrong
by DakotaDomer  (2019-10-17 15:19:12)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Pretty sure this was written in 2012


being from North Dakota you're probably used to getting
by jt  (2019-10-17 16:02:40)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

the news several years after everyone else.


It's not 2012 any more. *
by Porpoiseboy  (2019-10-17 16:06:53)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


in North Dakota it's still 1959 *
by jt  (2019-10-17 16:07:46)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


What to do about the NCAA Final Four Basketball
by TWO  (2019-10-17 15:09:07)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

tournament is always tossed out when the idea of the big football schools (Power 5) forming their own association.


it's not even the entire power 5 (witness Vanderbilt)
by jt  (2019-10-17 15:12:20)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

it would really only be the very top.

Basketball is different in that so many of those places lose their best players after one year


Ask your UW bud if he follows Reggie Bush's twitter feed.
by irishintheville  (2019-10-17 14:57:51)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

He sounds like a whiner to me. He should focus on beer and brats.


I don't understand the allure of conferences
by dulacshakur  (2019-10-17 14:55:09)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

They regionalize the university and permanently lock in a set of opponents. I guess it provides some bargaining power with TV networks and bowls and simplifies scheduling for non-revenue sports, but absent those needs, why is it viewed as necessary or even the preferred path?

Maybe having grown up an ND fan I don't appreciate the glory of winning a conference championship, but it seems a lot like winning your division in MLB, which is to say no one really remembers/cares.

The reality is people don't like ND's independence because they're jealous of it. We don't need to be in a conference, and that eats at them.


Unfortunately, I have to disagree.
by Tex Francisco  (2019-10-17 15:40:36)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Over the last 20 years, the significance of conference championships and conference championship games has greatly increased, and the significance of major bowls without NC implications has dramatically decreased. This is bad for ND. I don't think it necessitates ND joining a conference, but it's nevertheless been a bad trend for ND.


I agree with you on the trend
by dulacshakur  (2019-10-17 16:34:55)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

My point isn't that conferences are irrelevant to us but rather that they're kind of a silly institution that shouldn't be necessary for a school like ND -- or probably a few others (e.g., Texas, USC, etc.).

But, to your point, the powers-that-be (i.e., people with conference affiliations), have decided conference championships should be a primary consideration for postseason selection, and that's definitely bad for us.


I would argue that the significance of conference...
by BigNDfan  (2019-10-17 16:01:09)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

championships hasn't increased. Those teams are just playing a quality opponent at the end of the season which has implications on the playoffs.


For Football yeah..
by TWO  (2019-10-17 15:00:56)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

for us it's not a big deal, we don't need it.

But for the rest of the sports, in today's world, you can't exist without a conference. I don't think there is a single independent non-football program in the NCAA.


Maybe I am wrong, but I thought Alvarez did try to schedule
by BIG MAC  (2019-10-17 14:53:55)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Could someone with more knowledge about this enlighten me (us)?


Why do they care so much? *
by El Kabong  (2019-10-17 14:33:28)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


The Kollectiv cannot tolerate outliers. Their very
by 1NDGal  (2019-10-17 14:45:58)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

existence indicts the system and each sheep within it.


Was he looking to raise the B1G west above hot garbage? *
by graNDfan  (2019-10-17 14:31:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


It's not financially sensible
by HTownND  (2019-10-17 14:27:16)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

And geographically, I think that depends on the context. Sports, yes, it's better than the ACC all around, but it's still less optimal than staying independent, which is better both financially and geographically for ND.


The only way joining the B1G makes sense is if we don't have a choice, and it's a choice between the ACC and the B1G. Then, we should go to the B1G.

Otherwise, Independence is much much better than both the B1G and the ACC.


Wasn't some part of the ACC agreement..
by TWO  (2019-10-17 15:03:54)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

that for the next 25 years we have to join the ACC if we decide to go full time in a conference for football. I'm sure there is always a way out but there is likely some financial penalty.


Mr. UW believes we will ultimately not have a choice,
by Boomer80  (2019-10-17 14:29:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

that was a big part of his point. Join and get on with it.


When the playoff expands...
by BigNDfan  (2019-10-17 14:43:35)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

They’ll never have to join for football.


I'm afraid expansion may make it harder for ND
by GoDomers  (2019-10-17 14:55:08)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

to get in the playoffs. Right now there are 4 at-large spots. When they go to 8 teams, you are you going to have the champions of the power 5 conferences, the best non-power 5 conference winner, and 2 at-large spots. Fewer open slots for ND to take.


They'll have every conference spoken for....
by BigNDfan  (2019-10-17 14:57:24)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

and 3 open spots. That's a great scenario.


It worked wonders for Husker football *
by 105Marquette  (2019-10-17 14:25:55)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


And Penn State
by Vt2nd  (2019-10-17 15:21:02)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

They went from contending for national titles to begging for table scraps from OSU and Michigan.


Even the former indies that have won didn't need leagues
by gordonbombay  (2019-10-17 15:39:17)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Florida State and Miami, for instance, were extremely known quantities and national title contenders (Miami won a few) before they ever joined a conference.


Because money isn't everything, despite Savvy...
by Voisman  (2019-10-17 14:08:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Lou said it best...“Those who know Notre Dame, no explanation’s necessary. Those who don’t, no explanation will suffice.”


We played them in '62 and '63....lost both *
by EMK64  (2019-10-17 14:03:40)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Ara’s 1st team beat ‘em handily in ‘64. At their place to
by FrMiceli  (2019-10-17 20:26:46)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

boot.


ND is 8-6-2 all time against UW
by BeijingIrish  (2019-10-17 15:09:17)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

If one counts only the games in the modern era (1920 on), we're 8-3-1.


Ara's first game as ND coach in 1964: ND 31, Wisconsin 7. *
by G.K.Chesterton  (2019-10-17 14:08:42)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


My old refrain....worst four years in ND history for me *
by EMK64  (2019-10-17 14:13:01)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


If ND were to join the Big Ten....
by BigNDfan  (2019-10-17 13:50:04)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

they would become a regional school in the long term. They'd be a small private school in Northern Indiana. That becomes a lot more difficult to recruit outside of the Midwest.


Oh bullshit. Northwestern is not a small regional school
by ACross  (2019-10-17 14:07:34)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Joining the ACC would do greater harm to our football program


That's a hilarious point...
by BigNDfan  (2019-10-17 14:21:01)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

because I was about to say that ND would become Northwestern.

Why would ND want to be Northwestern in the football world?


You said school, not football program *
by ACross  (2019-10-17 18:20:55)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Versus Duke in the football world? *
by HTownND  (2019-10-17 14:23:14)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Is that worse? I really don't know
by DakotaDomer  (2019-10-17 15:21:01)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Why would we want to be either?

Why are any of you bringing up thes other schools as relevant to the conversation?

Who said we should join the ACC?


I don't want to be either
by HTownND  (2019-10-17 17:15:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

But I don't find casting our lot with the B1G versus the ACC as ideal, because we don't fit into either very well.

In the B1G, geographically it makes sense, but academically we'd stick out like a sore thumb as a private Catholic University. In the ACC, there are more private schools (Duke, Wake, Miami, BC, but they are in the minority to the larger state schools, and we're still 300 miles from Louisville and 400 miles from Pitt, the two closest schools).


Why are they becoming Duke? *
by BigNDfan  (2019-10-17 14:39:10)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Games in the south >>>>> games in the rust belt *
by El Kabong  (2019-10-17 14:37:05)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Except when your school is located somewhere
by ACross  (2019-10-17 18:30:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

That is geographically distant and separate from and culturally anathema to the south.


It depends
by HTownND  (2019-10-17 17:17:17)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

On who the game is against.

Games against Duke and Wake Forest are in the sun belt, and I don't find them all that interesting/entertaining or all that much better than a trip to West Lafayette.

Games in Syracuse and Chestnut Hill may be worse than anything in the rust belt.

Pitt isn't even on campus.


From a purely football related perspective, there is no
by smithwick  (2019-10-17 15:41:06)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

discernible difference in competition between being in the ACC or Big 10.

Since the ACC agreement, averaging Sagarin's conference rankings for each division as well as his central mean stat (Gives most weight to middle teams in the group and less weight to teams as you go away from the middle in either direction), results are from 2014 to current:

Big10 East: Conf Rank (4.00), Central Mean (77.71)
Big10 West: Conf Rank (7.33), Central Mean (74.91)
ACC Coastal: Conf Rank (6.83), Central Mean (75.08)
ACC Atlantic: Conf Rank (5.17), Central Mean (76.81)


That's great
by HTownND  (2019-10-17 17:32:37)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

But then you could put them on a trend line, which captures how shitty FSU, Miami and others have become since we signed the deal in 2012 and started playing games in 2014.

2016
ACC Atlantic (2) - 80.4
ACC Coastal (3) - 77.8
B1G W (7) 74.2
B1G E (6) 74.6


2017
ACC Atlantic (2) - 80.6
ACC Coastal (7) - 75.9
B1G W (7) 74.2
B1G E (6) 76.6


2018
ACC Atlantic (6) - 76.3
ACC Coastal (8) - 74.0
B1G W (7) 76.2
B1G E (3) 78.5



2019 (to date)
ACC Atlantic (8) - 73.8
ACC Coastal (9) - 73.3
B1G W (7) 74.6
B1G E (2) 80.8


Just as an example, FSU and Jimbo won the national title in 2013 and made the playoff in 2014, they suck now and are led by Willie Taggart.


This year, both B1G divisions are better than either of the ACC and that trend isn't going to change any time soon.

We cast our lot with a bunch of chumps. The tide switched after the 2016 season. Jimbo left, Lamar Jackson graduated, sending Louisville into a tailspin. Richt left Miami in shambles shortly after.

The ACC was good in the early part of our deal, but they have gone to shit since. I don't see them in a positive trend line at all.


Maybe. College football is pretty fickle.
by smithwick  (2019-10-17 20:41:12)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

ND is one of the biggest examples of that. We’re only three years removed from being at rock bottom. FSU for all we know is one great coaching hire away from returning to the top; they draw from so much talent and still recruit so well that it’s not inconceivable they’ll bounce back soon. Ditto Miami.

We’ll see how Day does the longer Urban is gone. PJ Fleck will be gone as soon as he gets offered a better job which may be USC at the end of the year.. Dantonio and MSU appear to be back to their usual selves. Check back in two weeks on Harbaugh and Michigan.


What about moving the entire campus to San Diego...
by Irishdemon  (2019-10-17 14:51:54)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

... and joining the Pac-12?

Think of the football tradition mixed in with the weather related recruiting advantages. We’d be unstoppable!

It’s time to think outside the box. Father Sorin should have never stopped in South Bend anyway.


It will happen when the weather clears *
by Son of Galway  (2019-10-17 14:56:02)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


It’s simple: Any conference would be a step backward.
by Giggity_Giggity  (2019-10-17 13:41:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Why should we let the weak-willed pull us down to their level?


the ACC is pulling our strength of schedule down but we have
by discNDav  (2019-10-17 14:09:25)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

better bowl opportunities now.


I have always disliked ND’s flirtation with the ACC
by Boomer80  (2019-10-17 14:27:29)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Geez, it’s just the B1G except there’s not even common geography! Mostly crap football but just as much arrogance! We have nothing in common with them, what’s the deal? At least with the B1G we have a sordid historical relationship of dislike and mistrust, along with some great wins (ok, and losses).


It's the least of all evils
by gordonbombay  (2019-10-17 15:41:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

At least the ACC has a few private schools and a few solid academic schools. As a bonus, none of its members have ever tried to smother our program in the crib.


^^^^^ *
by 1NDGal  (2019-10-17 15:47:01)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


We play Wisconsin next year and in 2021.
by akaRonMexico  (2019-10-17 13:31:50)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

And