including Abiara. That would leave the roster at 88 if Abiara left.
The 89 scholarships we’re currently at that Hansen is referring to is for this upcoming season, not next year.
Doesn't seem to be reported on the 247 site for ND 2021 commits. He's still listed as a commit.
He's going to Oklahoma.
They are like the 15 year old being given the keys to a McLaren, but rather than crash it, they turn into Lewis Hamilton. On paper, both OU and OSU should have taken a major step back after losing HOF coaches no matter who they hired, but both Riley and Day have kept things humming and have the sort of explosive NFL talent that will unfortunately keep them near the top. Michigan & Texas fans have to be particularly pissed to see their rivals own them, especially since both spent a fortune on coaches yet are also losing to lesser (from their perspective - I actually like UW!) schools like Wisconsin and Gundy rather than being 11-1 with the one loss to a major rival.
Maybe I am being obtuse, but ND is already the equivalent of Michigan and Texas in the example listed above. If you are saying that paying for a new coach may not get ND any closer to the Promised Land, I suppose that anyone would have to concede the point. But those of us who have tired of BK (or never warmed up to him in the first place) would argue that making even a failed effort to exceed the current, regrettable standard would be preferable to blithely accepting it, as has been done for a decade now.
We seem to be in a very weird sort of purgatory - we are now taking care of business and no longer losing the bye games like Duke and USF, but still can't take the final step. If it weren't for that demolition in Ann Arbor, I think an optimist could make a case for us being on that next tier below Alabama/Clemson/OSU with teams like OU/UGA (not sure where to place LSU) who've also been to the playoff but fallen short, but that game did occur and we are accordingly with Michigan, PSU, Wisconsin, Florida, etc. Texas utterly confounds me as one of the rare programs who makes us look poor, loaded recruiting area where they could literally fill their whole team in-state (USC, LSU, UF, FSU, maybe UGA as well) and not be at a talent deficit, strong history and success during recruits' lifetimes, great city, and a middling conference where the Red River Shootout should essentially be a play-in game for both them and OU as teams that are head and shoulders above their conference with aTm and Nebraska both gone.
On coaches, I am at an utter loss! I can't remember the exact quote about being better governed by the Mc section of the Boston phonebook vs. the Harvard faculty, but if Jack and the BoF were to ask the advice of a very average person like me, I think I'd go with:
-Character: As you could probably guess from my handle, I grew up with Lou as the face of our program, and who would have guessed a little fella with a lisp could command the sort of respect he did! We cannot have Barry Switzer type gunfights going on in the dorms, and while Meyer is central casting and my Catholic side wants a redemption story (and yes, selfishly he's a damn good coach), we'd have to have a zero tolerance policy on the shananigans.
-Proven track record: Yes, guys like Dabo and to a lesser extent Riley/Day have succeeded on their first try, but ND is a high pressure job and prior success working your way up the ladder like Saban would make me feel a lot more comfortable. Like we saw with Weis, there is also a difference between running one side of the ball and running a whole program too.
-Coordinator experience; Again, Dabo as the exception, but I do want a guy (heck, if there's a football version of Niele Ivey coaching Ja Morant, I'm all ears too!) who can roll up his sleeves and fix one side and bring in a great coordinator for the other. Orgeron seems like a guy who learned from his mishaps at Ole Miss, knew he was a better recruiter/motivator than an Xs and Os guy, but brought in a top staff with Aranda, Emsminger and of course the prodigy Joe Brady (on the opposite side of the circle of life & as an interesting aside, our old Southern Cal rival John Robinson is a "consultant" there).
-Recruiting: Don't need to say much here; you, me, or Snoopy the Beagle could coach Miami '01, but Rockne himself isn't going to beat Alabama with the Central Arizona roster.
-Elite experience: I'd love someone with an ND background who went elsewhere, learned, and came back, but nothing wrong with someone who succeeded at another top school. That said, I do think there is merit to having experience at a Florida over Central Florida or LSU over Louisiana-Lafeyette, and this will also likely help the networking for filling out a staff.
-Fit: Not as much of an issue, but pragmatically it may be a little easier for someone like Stoops or Meyer who grew up one state away to adapt compared to someone like Kirby Smart.
Post-Lou, it seems like we've managed to try multiple approaches, yet no success.
-Kelly: Successful run at Cincinnati, but never had the big school experience, and IMO this hurt with the staffing before some admittedly good recent hires like Lea and Balis. Those losses to Duke, Tulsa, and Southern Florida are still on the permanent record, but as mentioned, I think we are now kinda in that 10-2, top 10 level but don't have the horsepower to win 2 in January barring the QB version of Manti.
-Weis: Brilliant OC background, but looking back he also got a perfect storm working under 2 HOF Bill's and some Michigan QB who won a few games. Offensive scheme looked good on paper, but recruiting was a disaster for balance, and defensively I still remember the Tenuta/Brown error (sic) where I believe one side was playing a cover 2 and the other side was in a press man that promptly got diced.
-Willingham: On paper, he checked nearly all of my above "boxes" other than coordinator - former coach at a school that values academics, classy man without even a hint of scandal, nice story as a walkon who became a two sport standout at a quality school in Sparty, and while I would hope it is irrelevant in 2002 & 2020 for that matter, he was an African American in the highest profile college job in the country. The staff was um, lacking, but I am still flabbergasted & sad how fast it all fell apart.
-O'Leary: Oof. I think he would have been a high floor, low ceiling guy where we would churn out 10-2, 9-3 seasons with no major down years, but also wouldn't have the volatility. One of the posters here had some good insights on his staff, which seemed like may have been the actual version of what Weis promised.
-Davie: IMO, a backstabber, and 0-1 against hot dog machines. I genuinely wish him good health as I think he had a bypass last year, but also hope he goes 0-12 at UNM.
Where would I look?
-Shaw: I've always liked the guy, and if I were Jack I'd bet my job his style would win big and with very little downside. I am utterly confounded at his H2H vs Kelly, and he was fortunate to have a unicorn in Luck and the team Harbaugh built, but he's also done a consistently good job at a school that would rather build some damn app vs. watching a ball game, and ND may just give him the chance to finally win big. He is coaching at his alma mater, with one of the few other fanbases with deeper pockets than us, and in an area of the country people love, but by all accounts seems like a good man & coach.
-JT has forgotten more about football than I'll ever know, and while Kyle Shanahan would be a genuine gamechanger for us, that isn't happening. That said, Mike is a local Chicago guy whom would be a helluva 4-6 year coach if we were to be so fortunate, and IMO would both win big and put together a top staff given his great experience
-Stoops: He's actually a little older than I thought and completely see his perspective as his own dad died after coaching a HS game, but if we could do all we can to minimize his stress level....
-Meyer: I'll be contrarian here, and gladly take any empties thrown my way. The arrest situation at Florida and the wife beater assistant at OSU are massive red flags to say the least, and I cannot and do not want to defend them. That said, he seemed to run a clean program at Utah, and this could be a chance to show he can win and do it the right way after being at renegade programs. Zero tolerance policy of course, and I'd feel a lot better if we had an AD like Ned.
-Secondaries: Rhule has been at some bandit programs at PSU and Baylor, but supposed to be a decent guy. Chryst is a UW alum, but I believe his older brother was a QB for us, and that mauling offense would make people like ACross and myself very happy.
-Internally: Nope. Rees and Lea aren't ready, but go run a Miami-OH, then Indiana, etc, and they'd be worth keeping in the rolodex. I am not sure what happened with Tom Clements, but seems like that ship has sailed.
Edit - as for UM, they did get an absolute home run of a coach, and their failures have been as surprising as Texas. They had their 5 star transfer QB last year, OSU still in the early stage with Day, but they not only lost to OSU but also PSU and Wisconsin. Speaking of< Jack Harbaugh would have easily been on my list above 9 months ago, but Lamar Jackson changed that calculus.
Was pretty damn impressive, including Bill O'Brien as the OC and others.
He was fired by New Mexico.
Amazing how Brian Kelly is praised by large portions of this fanbase because he’s done better than a guy that ended up fired by New Mexico. And better than another guy that was literally Washington’s worst coach in more than 100 years of Husky football.
Anyway, I digress. I mostly agree with your post (minor disagreements here or there, not really worth quibbling about). Meyer would absolutely be my #1 but I’d be stunned if it happens (from either side’s wishes, let alone both which is what’s needed). I still think Rhule would be great here, would love to go after him in 2-3 years (if that’s when BK retires) if it doesn’t work out with the Panthers.
I think Lea could be a good HC, but it’d be a pretty big risk, and also a lazy/low hanging fruit hire.
If I were the recruit’s father, I would make sure he wouldn’t get away with that.
A high school coach has no place trying to influence a kid like that.
in which case, he's got the kid's best interests at heart and is encouraging him to make the 40 year decision.
A high school football coach is going way outside his lane when he interferes with a decision that a young man has made after consultation with his family.
because he used to a high school HC and then an assistant coach in the KC metro area. He specifically told a kid that he'd be a poor fit for ND and listed out all the reasons. That kid ended up at Oklahoma (playing for Bob Stoops, who people on this board would love to coach at ND...me included despite missing some fire in the belly)
He said this on the radio.
Interestingly enough, that same high school has two kids playing for ND right now. Different kids and different schools are fits for each other...and they aren't. A hs coach SHOULD be watching out for the player and not allowing the kid to make a mistake.
that's part of his job, to advise the kid and give him input. Just because the guy doesn't happen to agree with you doesn't make him wrong. I don't know this kid or this coach at all, but I would assume that the coach has the kid's best interests in mind. I see no reason to immediately assume something nefarious.
You're being silly. You have no idea what the kid's background is, where the coach is coming from, what his recruiting process was like, who the kid has for family, etc.
Come on, the coach is an OU grad. The “best interest” is thrown out the window when you know he is personally connected (and I would say that about all coaches pushing a player to their Alma mater). Obviously, he Could still have the kids best interest at heart, but since he pushed him to his own school the coaches motivation has to be questioned. At least a little bit.
everyone is going to have bias in some way, shape, or form. I happen to know a kid who just signed with ND last December and I know that a few ND alums were in his corner giving him advice. Should we question that as well?
Sure, it is entirely possible that the guy was acting in his own self interest. It's also entirely possible that the guy legitimately thinks (for whatever reason) that the kid is better off at OU.
I don't think that we need to fire the guy, as Sons of Galway insists.
I am looking at it from the perspective of the parent, not from the perspective of Notre Dame.
If my son had made the decision to go to a school, I am assuming it would have been a decision that was discussed at great length with the family. If, after the family and the son had made the decision, a football coach tried to change my son’s mind, I would be very unhappy with that coach.
I understand your point, that sometimes a football coach is more than just a football coach. I would not have any problem with the coach giving advice along the way, but once the decision was made, I would be unhappy, as a parent, if the coach tried to change my son’s mind.
Right?
and before you continue, it's only fair to point out to you that I am very familiar with how this process goes, who is involved, when a coach should be consulted, etc. One might say that I am close to this sort of situation, from a coach and a parent perspective. As a father, I would definitely consult with the head football coach, possibly a trainer (as many kids work with trainers outside of their team), a position coach, and anyone that can give me guidance and help me see things that I might otherwise miss. And I am saying that as a dad who happens to have about 40 years of experience of being around the game; if I was less familiar, I might seek out even more advice. Why would I cut off someone that I know and trust who might have an opinion that would be worthwhile considering? It would be stupid to not be completely thorough, and the honest truth is that Notre Dame is going to come out on top most of the time in these situations. It didn't work out this time, but I personally know of at least 2 other cases and situations in which it did and I'm sure that it happens all the time.
Your initial post that this man ought to be fired is completely ridiculous and borne out of selfishness that he didn't encourage the kid to go to ND. For all you know the coach has examined the situation and has determined in his mind that OU is better for a variety of reasons. If he can sway the kid that easily, the kid never really completely bought in to begin with. And furthermore, maybe the coach knows that the kid isn't a great fit for ND (for whatever reason).
Saying that a guy should be fired for expressing and sharing his opinion with a kid that he works with and mentors is completely selfish and ridiculous.
And I might add that you are completely mischaracterizing my position.
First, you make the assumption that I am taking this position because it’s Notre Dame that is getting screwed. That is not the case at all, as I have tried to make clear several times to you now. You seem to assume that everybody here is just a Notre Dame homer. You also seem to assume that someone pointing out that something that an opposing coach or school or has done is not exactly above board must be borne out of such homerism.
That is not the case with me. My objection is not that Notre Dame is getting screwed. My objection is that this was not advice that was given during the process, but instead was an attempt to change a boy’s mind after he had already made it up, presumably after consultation with his family and presumably the coach.
I have been around enough football coaches to know that most of them are not smart enough to take seriously when it comes to matters like higher education. Many of them are semi- fascist troglodytes, and your assumption his high school coach is some kind of Saintly father figure is naïve and ridiculous.
Just so you know, this is about my objection as a parent to an outsider trying to change a child’s mind after it has already been made up. I have no objection to taking advice or listening to football coaches about what they know about other football coaches, but most coaches wouldn’t know a high-quality higher education from a low quality higher education. Thus, the value of their advice is limited to the football field.
By the way, one of the reasons I hate Brian Kelly so much is that I think he leans more toward the fascist, nut ball type of coach that I have always despised. I don’t think he gets Notre Dame, and I’m not sure I would even want my son to play for him.
But that has nothing to do with my objection here, which is that a high school football coach should stay out of it after a decision has been made.
You may have had a different experience, as I know you played for St. John’s, if I’m correct. Your coach actually was one of the few father figures that I would trust in the coaching fraternity to influence my son. My experience is different. My high school coach was dumber than a bag of hammers and an asshole to boot, but he won a bunch of state championships so all of his indiscretions were overlooked. But I sure as hell wouldn’t let him influence my son’s college decision, and if he tried I would have moved my son to a different school.
Ok man.
All of my personal experience with this is out the window. The damn guy talked to the kid after he committed to Notre Dame! Fire him now! I mean, 17 year old kids NEVER make rash decisions that they perhaps might not have thought all the way through.
You're right, Son of Galway. The guy should not only be fired, but he should be thrown in jail! And this isn't because Notre Dame got "screwed" (NOOOOOOOO, of course not), this is because you and I have the young man's best interests at heart! He should be given life in prison without parole, as it is completely obvious that he did this only to further his own personal agenda!
I mean, we know that the coach certainly NEVER said anything prior to the commitment and only brought this stuff up AFTER the kid committed to ND. Truly nefarious!
And yes, my position on this was certainly naive, thanks for pointing that out. I don't have any idea what this process entails, thanks so much for pointing it out to me! Why, until you explained things so rationally, I thought that every high school football coach in the country was like Father Fuckin Flanigan! Now I know! You have opened my eyes, Son of Galway. I am eternally in your debt.
All sarcasm aside, let's revisit this post after the two national signing days occur. I might possibly move it up to after the first signing day, depending on how things work out.
On one hand, "pushing hard for" and "interfering" with a kid's decision is overstepping one's duties as a high school coach and going beyond providing guidance. At least that's my gut reaction to reading those terms.
Perhaps these are editorial flourishes of the situation, as I don't see any comments from Abiara that his coach is driving this. Possibly this stuff is coming from ND recruiting sites (given their incentives).
And to your point, I agree with the premise that a kid should seek credible counsel and perspectives wherever available, and stir them into the mix of how he is making his decision. I'd think a coach with major college playing experience and having other players he coaches go through the process would be an obvious piece of the puzzle.
"Interfering" and "Pushing Hard" is on the opposite end of the spectrum of "Credible Counsel" and "Providing Guidance."
That's the quote I was going off on. Nobody has any context, as you point out, but we've got an ND fan on an ND board who doesn't need context and just demands that the coach lose his job. We've got another fan saying that we need to see if said coach takes a job at OU in the next few years. But these aren't Homer's (perish the thought) they are just approaching it as if they were the kids dad. Meanwhile, someone who has experience on all 3 sides of this (as a player, coach, and father) in this situation needs to step back because his experience isn't relevant.
In other words, no, we're not both right. Sons of Galway is 100% wrong at this point given the information we know.
How can that be when you didn’t make one of your usual hilarious quips about USAA insurance? I do see, however, that you managed to slip in a standard “bagman“ comment and your old standby “grades” snark into this thread.
These HS coaches are often father figures. It may be nefarious (he’s an OU fan, or wants to build a connection/network with the OU coaching staff), or he may think attending Oklahoma’s in the kid’s best overall interest for a whole bunch of reasons/Abiara may be leaning on him for the advice.
ETA: And after a few seconds of research, it appears his head coach is in fact an OU alum. Yeah, that’s pretty messed up of him if he’s the reason for the flip.
This is why we need to be thankful for double digit win seasons.
The game has changed, it's the best we can do, it's not like we could get anyone else.