Kelly likely bolted for purpler grass because he knew his recruiting had fallen a notch or two and there was a pretty good chance he was gonna lose a few games this year.

He did not leave Freeman a top-5 team. Sure he left a top-15 team behind, to a first year head coach with a top-75 or so offensive coordinator, but it was not a top-5 team. And Freeman did about what most people expected with top-15 talent and a terrible offensive coordinator and a backup quarterback to boot.

I don't know if Notre Dame is out of the weeds with Freeman helming the program, but I know you sound like you have been smoking some....

Charlie actually recruited 5* talent.


BK inherited 3 top 10 classes including the jr class that was #2. This roster included four 5*'s, something BK would not have again in his 12 years at ND.

This group produced 4 first-round picks, one of which is a HoF lock while another is getting close. (Zach Marin, Harrison Smith, Tyler Eifert, Michael Floyd)

He also had a 5* QB and a slew of guys that would play years in the NFL: Theo Riddick Manti Teo Kyle Rudolf KLM TJ Jones Ian Williams Chris Watt Darrin Walls Robert Blanton Prince Shembo Louis Nix Chris Stewart Trevor Robinson Armando Allen Cierre Wood Jonas Gray Robert Hughes
Bennett Jackson (I'm probably missing some)

And what did he do with all that talent?

Lost at home to Navy by 3 scores and also lost to Tulsa at home and told everyone in the presser afterward to "get used to it".

He only played 2 ranked teams that year, lost to #16 Stanford by 23 and beat #14 Utah.

This years schedule will have 2 top 5 teams and at least 3 other ranked.

Charlie for all of his faults did leave the program better than he found it. His recruiting had holes in it but much smaller ones than Ty left behind. He also left Kelly better players in skill positions than Kelly left behind for Freeman.

Scheme and coordinators weren't good for Charlie but Kelly didn't leave behind a schematic advantage either.

behavior, where we were treated to thin-skinned excuses like "Get used to it" after losing to Tulsa.

Kelly left Freeman an 8-4 team, honored by Freeman's poise, class and growth.

BK left Notre Dame after 12 seasons of horrific behavior that in itself was a demonstrative dumpster fire that went far beyond wins and losses.

After all of those years with Kelly, it’s clear that he was never going to take the program where anyone with any historic knowledge wants it to be. He was going to keep it in purgatory, while behaving like a horse’s ass that has no appreciation for what this place is all about. I couldn’t be happier to see him gone.

We’re not sure yet what we have in Marcus Freeman as a head football coach, but we know he’ll work his tail off to be the best he can be, and we know he gets this place. I would much rather travel down an occasionally bumpy road with Freeman, whose ceiling I truly believe is higher than Kelly’s, than spend any more time spinning our wheels with a head coach who is content winning most of the time while offering excuses why he can’t win more.

Players, promising results when he gets his own guys?

...next season's opener?

Famously spoken by Brian Kelly after embarrassing losses at both Notre Dame and LSU. And for all we know, at Cincinnati, Central Michigan, and GVSU, too.

You really don't need to know much more than that about the difference between him and Marcus Freeman.

You are talking out your rear.

Kelly completely screwed over the QB and WR positions with his recent recruiting.

top 10 in the team composite rankings (which include all players on scholarship

https://247sports.com/Season/2022-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite/

Finishing 15 and 18 means you are performing at the very bottom of your peer group and providing zero chance to win a national title in 2022 unless you have a messiah QB. Which of course Kelly did not leave ND with.

Talent Composite ranking heavily titled to young players, especially the frosh class which is only highly ranked because of Freeman's impact.

USC had junior and senior classes ranked 20th, and 63th.
UNC had junior and senior classes ranked 30th and 14th.

Our senior and junior classes may be horrible classes in your opinion, but if they are, then they are 9-2 horrible classes, not 7-4 horrible classes.

Also, the 2018 class was 10th, and some of our best players were fifth years this year.

+ that's not even accounting for the heavy weight which should be placed on the QB position.

+ there are 12 games in a season.

+ USC injected an immense amount of talent through transfers into the equation which makes your comparison inaccurate. USC has the better roster/team.

+ the fact that 5th year borderline NFL draft picks (and some non-NFL players) are among the best ND players proves the point.

+ Every team has a few 5th years that are at least as good as ND's.

ND's talent/roster is top 20-25 this year. They finished ranked #19.

Jaylen Sneed was a 5* but wasn’t ready to see the field this year as a true freshman. Still think he’ll end up being a very good/great player. But he counts the same as a 5* junior/senior.

Class rankings, per 247 composite:

2019 (seniors): 15 (also includes Kyle Hamilton and Kyren Williams)
2020 (juniors): 18
2021 (sophomores): 9
2022 (freshmen): 7

that a large part of the reason that Sneed is here was the recruiting prowess of Freeman. It's not a coincidence that the highest rated of those years was the year with Freeman.

I don't care for Kelly but any analyst worth his salt will admit that he left Notre Dame in a much much better place than when he inherited it. He left it with the team you see today, which is not a bad team at all. The one exception is at QB, the most important position on the team. Freeman and Rees should have gone to the portal during the off-season to get a good QB. You know, like Kelly did with Coan and at LSU with Daniels. Put Daniels on this team and you are in the playoffs. Apparently, Freeman opted not to go to the portal so as to not rock the boat in his first year as head coach.

So yes, you are right. I do not know of a single Notre Dame analyst or beat reporter that will say anything different. Even Bryan Driskel on Irish Breakdown recognizes that he left Notre Dame football in a much better place than when he began his tenure. And that is saying a lot because Driskel hates Kelly with a passion and does not hide it at all.

Nobody is going to mistake anyone in this receiving corps for any of the WR that CW left behind and Kyle Rudolph was not a slouch even if he isn't Mayer. Also nobody will mistake any of the LB's for Manti Teo.

Charlie left him better recruits than he left Freeman and it isn't close. So are you going to hang your hat on the Jumbotron, the fake turf, or the practice barn?

Everyone says Kelly left the program better than he found it, but they forget that Kellys initial success was based largely on what Chatlie had recovered from the ashes of the Ty fire. Charlie was a failure, but his initial success got the Gug built and put ND back on the list for recruits. Kelly parlayed that into a stadium expansion and expanded facilities.

Fact of the matter is that Kelly managed to coast on by. He managed to dodge a firing halfway through his time here. He marginally raised the floor.

I simply ask what did Kelly really do to leave the program better? He offered excuses and used the program as a piggy bank until he was forced to clean up his mess enough to save face and get the hell out before the house of cards fell in again.

He likely left the same team we saw this year given the shortcomings on the roster. So he left a top 8 program (which is as an improvement). But he left probably a top 20 team.

in a much better place than when he inherited it." If you want to argue the football program is better positioned for success, you can make that argument. But Notre Dame, as a place, is not better for Kelly trying to turn it into something it has never been.

to Marcus Freeman, should include an analysis of the whole Brian Kelly experience, which was....not good.

The point, which I contest (read my original response), is that Kelly did not leave the Notre Dame football program in a better place than when he was named the head coach. My post has nothing to do with Freeman.

If you just look at records, the 2010 team went 8-5, with some catastrophic losses to Navy and Tulsa. The 2022 team is 8-4, with catastrophic losses to Marshall and Stanford. I'm not sure that records tell us much of anything.

So let's look at position groups and make a subjective evaluation. Here's which group I think I'd take:
QB - 2010, not close
RB - 2010, close
WR - 2010, not close
TE - 2022, but really close. Mayer is *really* good, but Rudolph and Eifert were both on that 2010 team.
Oline - 2022
D-line - 2022, close
Linebackers - 2010, not close
DBs - 2022, close
Kickers - Push.

There's three spots where the 2010 roster was clearly better than 2022. The 2022 roster has no such advantages over the 2010 roster, though you might make a case on o-line.

I didn't think the QB situation in 2010 was necessarily any better on paper than what we have now.

On second consideration, I'd temper that, though still award it to the 2010 team, but it's probably not a "not close" scenario when Buchner's pre-season potential is taken into consideration.

It wasn't kind and I edited it. But the post I responded to made it tricky to defend our current crop of QBs. I think Pyne, Buchner and Angeli are, as a group, just as good as the crop in 2010.

Dayne was a top 25 recruit who had enormous potential but was irretrievably ruined by Kelly. I think we jumped the gun early on Buchner who had some bad luck in HS and never had the opportunity to grow or develop. I think we jumped the gun on Angeli too. I hope both prove me wrong

We can go back and forth on this and I agree with a lot of what you said. However, when you look at the big picture, here is what you objectively see :

1. A team that has gone to the College Playoffs a few times and in the finals once (before the new system). That was not the case under Weis or Willingham;
2. A team with a composite talent that was better than any team under Weis or Willingham.

Let's not forget that the origin of the post is that it was contested that Kelly left the team in a much better place than when he inherited it, which is objectively true.

And I know for a fact you wouldn’t be if you weighted junior and senior classes as more important than freshman and sophomore classes in a talent analysis. But even weighing all 4 classes evenly, 2010 and 2022 are about even.

You seem to be glossing over this fact, when it’s a huge crux of your argument. If you want to bring up “culture” or “facilities” or “players that are experienced at winning” or any other number of intangible things as to why the program was better in Dec. 2021 compared to Dec. 2009 then go ahead. But you continuing to bring up talent composite via recruiting rankings as an example of why Freeman inherited a better program than Kelly is completely incorrect.

...which has some reliable foundation, as opposed to the conclusory flags being waved by NDQuebec and ND74KJS.

Please tie any any details to either how Brian Kelly moved ND closer to a national championship or brought the Notre Dame football program closer to ND's overall mission.

Also note which ones BK was primarily responsible for and which ones merely happened during his 12-year tenure and were not driven by him or in some cases in spite of him (such as S&C improvements/Balis).

playoffs a couple of times? And how about the fact that the recruits he left are in the top 10 of the 2022 team composite rankings. Is that not good enough for you? Ok, then check the record during the last five years. Still not good enough? Then I give up.

I implore you to look at ND’s 2007 and 2008 class recruiting rankings, since you apparently think Kelly took over the Rutgers program in 2010.

Great, he did better than Weis.

which is not a bad team at all.”

Nobody disagrees with that. What people disagree with is that 2010 team was a dumpster fire. Go look again at the 2010 roster.

Either way, neither 2010 nor 2022 rosters were good enough to win a championship. Probably the only one that was in the BK era was 2015. It’ll take a couple years, but hopefully Freeman can get it to a championship level by 2024/2025.

shows it, that Kelly left ND in a much better position than when he took it over. It is clearly demonstrated by the wins and losses during the last five years and the level of overall talent. Weis stocked up on skill position talent but overall, his teams were lacking in the other positions. Just ask Clausen what he thought of his oline. Like him or not (and I do not), he left the team in a better place than when he joined it.

Kelly left the program in better shape than it was when he came in. You're entitled to it, but it's just, like, your opinion, man.

up with objective facts.

The only information that you have presented is the composite rankings, which others have pointed out to you is flawed. As far as I can tell, you have not to responded to those points.

I will remind you that it has been demonstrated that the talent level Kelly left was at best on par with what he inherited. I would argue - note, this is my *opinion*, I am not not trying to present it as a *fact*, that our talent deficiency at critical spots such as QB, receiver, and linebacker makes this year's team worse than 2010's. It's difficult to succeed at the highest level when none of your QBs is much better than average. That's on Kelly.

The fact is, and the record shows it, that:
* Kelly had a full season vacated under his watch. That was over 5 years ago, but it is a mark against the program that never can be removed.
* A student manager died on Kelly's watch. He should have been fired on the spot. Swarbrick as well. That Notre Dame did not do so will forever be a point of shame for the university.
* The schedule at the end of Kelly's tenure was watered down, inflating his win percentage. Ref: here https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/notre-dame/index.html. Others may have better links, that's what I found with a quick search. My *opinion* is that the ACC is a weaker football conference than the Big 10.
* Kelly's team in 2012 was led by players that he inherited.
In 2005 ND took a national-champion runner-up Southern Cal team to the wire. Kelly got curb-stomped every time he encountered an elite team. That's not leaving the team in better shape.

So, I find the following statement made by you to be flawed. One might even say that the fact is, and the record shows, that it is objectively false:

"I get what you are saying but the fact is, and the record shows it, that Kelly left ND in a much better position than when he took it over. It is clearly demonstrated by the wins and losses during the last five years and the level of overall talent. Weis stocked up on skill position talent but overall, his teams were lacking in the other positions. Just ask Clausen what he thought of his oline. Like him or not (and I do not), he left the team in a better place than when he joined it."


It's your opinion, you're welcome to it. Please don't insult the collective intelligence of the board by trying to present your opinion as indisputable fact. Have a good evening.

recruiting under Weis vs under Kelly. If you see flaws in the composite rankings, maybe you will find this article more enlightening.

As for the rest, I'll just say that this year's team is much better than Weis's last team. Kelly inherited a team that was 6-6. Freeman inherited a team that was 11-2. This year's team was a QB away from being in the hunt for a national championship. Getting a good QB through the portal would have done the job. Freeman chose not to.

Finally, the rest of your points (vacated wins, etc.), have nothing to do with the question, which is: Did Kelly leave the Notre Dame football program in a better place than it was when he inherited it.

• Click here for link at https://247sports.com/college/notre-dame/Article/Looking-bac

shape that what he inherited.

My opinion is that he did not. In my opinion the 11-2 record was the result of a puffball schedule. The state of the program that Kelly left was one that was incapable of winning a national championship. If you think for one second that adding a good QB - not a Heisman candidate, just a good one, would result in a non-trivial chance to win the national championship, then there's really nothing more to discuss. Even more than there already is little to discuss.

Record isn't everything. Faust's final year was 5-6. But he left a Heisman candidate and a lot of talent when he left. Likewise Weis. Weis had plenty of gaps, but he left the core of the 2012 championship run team, about which Kelly only could complain.

Kelly left the state of the larger _program_ worse than what he inherited. To me, the program is more than just the on-field results. Freeman, to his credit, is undoing some of Kelly's misdeeds.

You hold a different opinion, and that's fine. I'm heading out, so I won't be able to spend any more time debating it with you, thank goodness.

Again, have a good evening.

...You have adduced some facts, but they don't support your point.

The fact that Kelly got ND to the playoffs in 2012 and 2018 does not bear on the state of the roster when he took a powder from us in late 2021. We're not talking about NFL teams where you often have roster continuity over several years--keeping the college roster well-stocked takes very assiduous effort every single year, something that Kelly evidently did not exert.

This also is true to the extent that you consider Kelly's win-loss record as proof to support your point. What he did 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago on the field of play is a red herring, or at best distantly related to the issue of the roster coming into 2022 versus what he came into in 2010. Take a look, again, at what KeoughCharles05 posted (at the link below); your reply to him indicated some agreement, but then you cited the playoffs, which as I said are not to the point.

• Click here for link at https://ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=4711

Defensive players on the roster when Weis left included:
Manti T'eo - multi-year NFL career
Brian Smith - played in the NFL
Harrison Smith - 6 time pro bowler
Kapron Lewis-Moore - multi-year nfl career
Robert Blanton - multi year nfl career
Zeke Motta - drafted into the NFL
Ian Williams - Multi-year NFL career
We'll not mention Prince Shembo...
Dan Fox - played in the NFL
Bennett Jackson - played in the NFL
Darrin Walls - played in the NFL
Darius Fleming - multi year NFL career

Weis didn't leave the 85 Bears behind, but it wasb't a dumpster fire either.

On offense, when Weis left, the following players still had eligibility:
Jimmy Clausen
Dayne Crist
Golden Tate
Michael Floyd
Kyle Rudolph
Theo Riddick
Jonas Gray
Tyler Eifert
And that's without even going into the linemen...

The original poster's point was that, though 6-6 when Weis was fired, there was ample talent for that team to be better in the following year. And that was correct. Weis's last two teams were young with a thin roster, and Kelly inherited a stable of good recruiting classes Kelly. This includes several guys that spent 4-6 years in the NFL, as well as guys with longevity like Te'o and a possible NFL Hall of Famer in Harrison Smith. (To say nothing of the surefire NFL Hall of Famer in Zack Martin). Kelly didn't inherit 6-6 talent. A decent college coach would've been expected to get more out of that. He inherited at least 8-5 talent, which was Kelly's record despite choking against Navy and Tulsa.

Similarly, Kelly didn't leave a Top 5 team because he didn't leave Top 5 talent. The leading RB and WR were gone, as were the All-American safety. ND's upper classes this year were in the 13th to 18th range in recruiting, and there were big gaps in offensive recruiting. There were holes at WR and QB that would've affected Kelly just as much as they would've affected Freeman.

Going into the year, 8-4 was my baseline expectation because of these deficiencies. But I expected the team to be notably better at the end of the year because of these shortcomings and because the line was still young and developing. It would've taken a huge leap from Buchner to do better than this. This assessment proved to be accurate. Despite choking to Marshall and Stanford, the team looked a lot better by years' end.

All in all, both Kelly and Freeman more or less performed in line with the situation they were dealt. Both adjusted. Kelly ran the ball more at the end of 2010 to win. Freeman also may or may not have exerted more influence in offensive game planning to pound the ball after early season failures and qb injury. Obviously, the SC game was a setback. I'm still hopeful that we respond in the bowl game against a decent opponent.

was not the ingredients for a top 5 team.

Obviously, not the be-all, end-all (and not always accurate) and there are certain intangibles/culture/development attributes that need to be taken into account, but if you want to call entering a situation with a roster that has Manti Te’o, Zack Martin, Harrison Smith, Tyler Eifert, Michael Floyd, Kyle Rudolph, Jonas Gray, Kapron Lewis-Moore, Theo Riddick a “dumpster fire” I will disagree.

QB's (Clausen left before Kelly could ruin him)...Weis recruited Rees first and Crist
RB's: both Wood and Riddick were Weis players
WR's: Floyd left after '11 (Tate left early like Clausen)
OLine...Weis left a lot of good players including Z Martin, Golic Jr, Watt, and Cave
TE...Rudolph (left after '11) and Eifert
Te'o...obviously, Motta, KLM...lots of good players and leaders

Weis played a full strength USC(and well coached no matter how much we can't stand Carroll)...Kelly played a very bad USC program and benefitted from it.

Let alone an empty one.

And Kelly went unranked and 8-5 his first two seasons

Freeman had a better first year than Kelly’s first two, with top 20/25 talent

He was a lazy fuck recruiter. This is the team he left Freeman.