We should settle this once and for all
by HTownND (2011-09-14 10:37:11)

In reply to: Good post. A few thoughts:  posted by oneill3b


"Much of the discord here stems from reactions by people who feel this way to posters who seem to conclude, with certitude, that Kelly is doomed to follow the path of Davie, Willingham, and Weis"



Point out who and where this is happening. Please, let's put the light of day on all those who are doing it.

We should not and cannot mistake being pissed off because we're off to a historically awful start this season, as certainty that Kelly will fail.

Kelly shouldn't be compared to his predecessors, both good and bad. He will succeed or fail on his own, not because he was like Lou or Weis.


Anyone who is certain Kelly will fail, is full of it, and should be shouted down from all quarters. I don't think it's happening, so I think you're setting up a straw man.

Everyone should hope that Kelly will turn this around. But I think he's got to change things, because what he's doing, right now, isn't working. This start is historically awful by ND standards. That is a reality.

I don't know if he's going to fail or succeed, but what is happening, right now, isn't working. We shouldn't confuse stating the fact that we're off to an awful start, by ND standards, with having certainty about Kelly's prospects. Suggesting that we also accept that there is a chance that Kelly could crash and burn, doesn't imply certainty either.

Claiming that people are certain Kelly will fail doesn't advance the discussion one iota. Comparing him to Lou or Weis/Davie/Willingham is an exercise in futility. Finally, we're not in a good place right now, and people are right to be pissed off/angry/sad.


Exhibit 1
by oneill3b  (2011-09-14 10:37:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=235908;d=this

See the first line. There are many others.


We'll simply disagree
by HTownND  (2011-09-14 10:37:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I obviously didn't read the post the same way you did. Where are the "many others"? I want examples, lots of them. A single post, which is saying those who are certain Kelly is the answer are beyond hope, isn't really supporting your claim.


It's fine to disagree
by oneill3b  (2011-09-14 10:37:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

BeijingIrish: "It starts with a discreet chat Swarbrick has with Kelly alerting him that Stanford will be his last game."


Swing and a miss
by HTownND  (2011-09-14 10:37:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Any others?


To clarify
by HTownND  (2011-09-14 10:37:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I want people saying, specifically, Kelly will fail, with certainty, and that we need a new coach, right now.

That's not being said, and we both know it.

But hey, keep responding to something that isn't there.


Response
by oneill3b  (2011-09-14 10:37:11)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

This is kind of a silly pissing match, but with all due respect, I think you are the one employing a red herring. Here's what I said:

"Much of the discord here stems from reactions by people who feel this way to posters who seem to conclude, with certitude, that Kelly is doomed to follow the path of Davie, Willingham, and Weis."

"Yet many posts on this board (not yours) reflect a conclusion that there is simply no way Kelly will turn this around."

Here is what you suggested I was looking for: "I want people saying, specifically, Kelly will fail, with certainty, and that we need a new coach, right now."

There's a significant gulf there. I've never claimed people have said we need a new coach, right now. But the posts I've highlighted say, respectively, we need a new coach at the end of this season, and, anyone who thinks Kelly might still succeed is so far gone as to not be reasoned with. I think that both reflect a certainty on the part of the poster that Kelly will fail. If not, why replace him at the end of this year, and why say posters who think he could still succeed are not worth considering?

I know this is silly, but I just don't get how one could read the board and not conclude that there are several posters who appear to be certain that Kelly will fail.


I'll say it. Barring major changes to his approach and staff
by Now Hang Up  (2011-09-14 10:37:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Brian Kelly will fail at Notre Dame. There is still time for those changes to be made, but I have no faith he will make them. If he doesn't, I am fully convinced that he will fail and would prefer that we immediately begin searching for a replacement.


That's still different
by HTownND  (2011-09-14 10:37:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

This qualifier is important

"There is still time for those changes to be made, but I have no faith he will make them"

It allows for the opportunity to fix things. I'd be curious what the original poster says.

I'll say this, Kelly cannot keep doing what he's currently doing, it isn't working.


My response to that
by oneill3b  (2011-09-14 10:37:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

is that it is at least more reasonable than concluding that Kelly is bound to fail, period. I happen to think it's premature to conclude that he will fail unless he makes dramatic overhauls, but I could understand at this point why someone would disagree with that.


A careful reading of others will reveal NHU's post
by HowardRoark  (2011-09-14 10:37:11)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

to be (nearly) universally the position of those you suggest are certain Kelly will fail.


Thanks
by HTownND  (2011-09-14 10:37:11)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I will say this, I think we've all been beaten down way too much, and Cross is right. This is sad and getting old. I had a good converstation with a life long friend who went to ND as well. We have memories of the good times, but they are distant, very distant, and getting more so with each passing day.

I really am getting tired of all of this, it really does suck for everyone.