My thoughts on MM offseason and recruiting strategy
by ndpaul (2019-05-16 03:44:14)

Hey all, believe it or not, I have been as avid a fan as some on this board but have chosen not to post. I watched every single game possible the last 3 seasons and will continue do do so. For awhile it felt troubling to sit idle (for most part - we did get Walker) while other schools are making off season moves - notably Uconn...

Now to my point: MM is throwing in the towel for next season in this respect: She isn't going to bring in a "medium transfer" post that can't help us at expense of minutes needed for her younger players.

Face it: When Patterson departed, that left us in huge pickle at post/forward. When Young declared, that was the true nail in any "return to FF", but Patterson completed the "we just wont be that good mode".. MM did not see anyone that was going to help us get back to the final four or even win the Big East. In her own words, a #17 ranking is generous for us.

Next year is all going to be about getting minutes and finding who we are.

I don't think it is a complete capitulation because if Vaughn or someone else steps up, or we become a successful guard oriented team and that would be fine. We fans should just get our expectations in line with watching coach says and does....


It wasn't just Patterson and Young that left us in this hole
by quasimodo  (2019-05-16 14:53:17)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Yes, they helped but the two earlier transfers (Patberg, Boley) really hurt as they would have been upperclass women and the presumed starters on next year's team with Young.

They left us with holes that Jackie and Patterson helped to dig deeper.

I'll be happy to be OK and make the NCAA's next year given the youth of the team.

Q


Quasimodo agreed
by ndpaul  (2019-05-17 03:53:46)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

The transfers hurt us. Don’t know if Boley would have provided inside presence - she sort of stands at the three point line with her hands ready to catch and shoot, but yes


I only saw a couple Oregon games
by PWK2  (2019-05-17 12:04:02)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

but what I saw was what you saw: an unaggressive, unathletic shooter with great range. Truly one-dimensional.


Boley
by hempfield75  (2019-05-17 15:59:51)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

What games I saw of Boley at Oregon was not a starter. She would miss wildly
on her 3 pt shots. A lot of air balls that were no where near the target.
Did some rebounding but not physical. She would sneak in from the wing for
a rebound. I would see her more as a 6th player than a starter. Like
mentioned before. Way to one dimensional. Did not run the court well. I also
hate to mention this but had added weight.

SEG/Chief


The facts about Boley.
by Domerduck  (2019-05-17 21:59:58)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

She definitely was an upgrade over Lexi Bando who she replaced in the Duck starting lineup. Stats for Boley who started every game for the Final 4 Ducks vs 3 pt wizard Lexi:

...........MPG Avg FG% FT% 3Pts 3pt% Rebs Asts ATO Stls.. Blks
Boley 28.1 12.4 46% 95% 108 43%.....132...41....1.2 20....2
Bando 26.2 10.2 47% 76% 80 46%.......52....32....2.0 20.....0

I don't see how you don't think she's a starter. Compare her to Marina, ND's top 3 point shooter she hit 28 more threes and had a better % (43% vs 41%). As for fitness, I agree she doesn't have a"classic" bball body, but she sure is fit. She played 38 minutes in their final 4 game against Baylor, which was more than Marina and Bri while scoring 14 points, more than 3 of ND's starter vs Baylor that weekend. She disappeared is some games, but also has several big games scoring over 30 twice and over 20 4 more times.

I know I'll get flack for defending her but she is a good player. It would have been good for ND if ND had kept her, but she certainly got more PT playing for the Ducks. I think she will be even better next season for Oregon.


Boley
by hempfield75  (2019-05-17 23:00:49)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Domerduck I always respect your opinion. You also make a good case for
Boley. Here is the difference between your opinion and mine. You showed
a lot of great numbers that support your opinion. I am not a numbers guy.
Do not like numbers and they can mislead you.

...You can look at a box score and it will show that a team dominated
another team based on the numbers. But if you look at the tape and final
score it shows a lose. Great example would be about 10 years ago when
Appalachian State beat Michigan at Michigan. If you would look just at
the numbers Michigan won. That is just one small example of how numbers
can be misleading.

...Plus I believe in the eye ball test. What I saw in the games I watched
was not a confident outside shooter. A lot of her shots were no where near
the basket.

...For her size I did not see a strong rebounder. She did not back out
but did not go at the basket strong.

...Her defense is a liability I hate to say. She is a one dimensional
player. She may have been off on the games I watched. But still that
does not justify her starting over someone that is multidimensional.
Easier for the other team to defense against her if they have to prepare
for her.

...She can still get her minutes and be a strong contributor. I think
she is a good player. Just not a starter. Will see when Oregon brings
in other transfers and recruits. I do not like to compare but I would
put Kat Westbeld over her. I know two different styles but I liked
Kats game much better.

...I hope she proves me wrong. I am going by the games I saw her
play.

SEG/Chief


Obviously Coach Graves doesn't agree with you since she
by Domerduck  (2019-05-17 23:18:30)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

started every game. The team did the best it ever did with her as their only change in the starting lineup from their previous Elite 8 result.


Without Ionescu and Hebard, Boley is average
by Murcer68  (2019-05-18 10:14:21)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

All she does is stand behind the 3 point and wait for someone to throw her the ball so she can shoot. She doesn't play defense. She doesn't fit our offense and it is good for everyone she left. At Oregon they don't ask her to do anything but stand and shoot, so it's a great fit for her limited game. Glad she realized Oregon was the better fit for her.


True. She was their 5th best player, but they needed her.
by Domerduck  (2019-05-18 14:49:28)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Cazorla was more important even though she scored less. It will be interesting how Boley's PT is affected with Satou's sister Nyara plays, who was hurt and redshirted last year. If Nyara can play, shoot, and move like Satou she could take over the starting role over Erin. I also think Taylor Chavez will take over the starting role from Cazorla.

I hope she improves and keeps starting,but Graves will go for the better player. Satou took over as a Freshman for McGwire which is why she transferred. In addition she knew Boley was going to play after her redshirt year. Erin needs to be prepared to keep her starting job.

I still hope ND and Oregon meet again in the NCAAs,hopefully Final 4.


That is Why He is a Coach
by hempfield75  (2019-05-18 04:16:18)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

That is why he is a coach and I am infront of a computer. I wish them
a lot of luck unless they play the Irish again.

...Just to be clear. I just summarized a few games I saw her play. It had
nothing to do with the fact she transferred from ND. I have a bad habit of
saying what I think sometimes. Nothing against Erin. I hope she has a
knock out year. Just not against the Irish. I would like to see Oregon
and IU play. That would be fun. Especially when Dani can play. Heck of a
story. Dani is still a favorite of mine. I do not hold anything against
any of the 3 transfers.

SEG/Chief


BTW they played in teh NCAAs in March in Eugene, Ali
by Domerduck  (2019-05-19 15:36:25)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

outscored Erin 16-14, but the Ducks won. Erin shot 4-8 for threes and 50% overall. Alos shot 8-18, missed her three 3's,but had 5 assists vs Erin's 2.

Don't think Dani will get to play with Ali unless she asks and gets a medical 6th year. I think Dani is sitting out this coming year.


IU
by hempfield75  (2019-05-19 19:59:51)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I think IU was a good choice for Dani. She may not play with Ali but they
sure can exchange stories.

...When Boley is hot she is hot. Do not get me wrong. She is a great shooter.
But she still needs to work on all parts of the game. Especially if she
desires to go to the WNBA.

I will still keep an eye on the 3 transfers to see how they are doing. I
still want them to do well. They did not bad mouth ND when they left. So
I have no issues on their choices. It is their life not mine. If they are
not happy. It will affect their game. The mental aspects of sports. I just
hope Dani gets used in a way she can show what kind of athlete she really
is. Good Luck to all of them.

SEG/Chief


Wasn't going to comment on your last point
by PWK2  (2019-05-17 16:28:12)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

But yes, she appears to have gained, especially in the region immediately south of the neck.


I also Did not want to mention it
by hempfield75  (2019-05-17 20:36:01)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I only mentioned it because I (my opinion) think it affected her play.
It was pretty obvious she would not have worked in ND's transition game.

...Yes, I am human. I noticed that also.

...If Graves cares about her more than just a shooter. I hope after the
season he had a heart to heart talk with her. If she gets down to the ideal
playing shape. Look out. She will be dangerous. I also think it will
improve her confidence.

SEG/Chief


Good post yet I think we could win the Big East-but the ACC
by Domerduck  (2019-05-16 12:43:47)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

will be a lot tougher given as we now play in that conference. I agree Final 4 is a stretch but I hope we don't give up our 6 years and running ACC regular season championship without a fight. As you know we are the fighting Irish.

BTW if you include the last 2 years when we were in the Big East ND has been 1st in their conference for 8 straight years. Even UConn can't say that...only Baylor from the top conferences. Hope we don't given up now just because we are rebuilding.


i agree with nd paul
by BB Junky  (2019-05-16 07:55:31)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Very well said. ND is rebuilding instead of reloading. an unusual place to be. Nothing wrong with that and it in not a criticism. MM needs to hit a couple of home runs recruiting the next few years to restock the talent. Especially underneath the basket.

The process of seeing young players grow can be fun but expect a lot of growing pains.


I would argue that it should be a criticism
by bmoreirish  (2019-05-16 14:05:37)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

ND is an elite WBB school, probably #2 behind UConn, and clearly in the top 4. All credit is due to McGraw and her work for this. Still, a school in this position should be reloading, not rebuilding. Yes, there are going to be years where the talent is young and maybe not ready to win it all, but the dearth of bigs this upcoming season is stunning. We should be prepared to absorb a transfer blow and it appears we were not. An elite program should never have so few on scholarship.

I have every confidence that we will return to elite, but that doesn't mean this couldn't have been handled better.


About the last sentence of your 1st paragraph...
by cbiebel  (2019-05-20 20:29:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

There is another program out there that, not including transfers, had to deal with 8 scholarship players returning plus an incoming recruit. In addition, half of those will be seniors, so not only will they need a big class (and/or quite a few transfers in) just to get to their standard 11-12 player team, but they will also have to replace those 4 who will be graduation next year.

That program is UConn.

They've had a grad transfer (from Murray St.) and a player from Poland added so far (are either standard level for UConn? Not sure). Also, there is Evina Westbrook who might get immediate eligibility, but that isn't certain.

But my point is that UConn, of all programs, was in that very situation that you said an elite program should never be in.


But it appears they solved the problem
by bmoreirish  (2019-05-21 10:08:30)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

It appears our solution is going to be to employ a 4-guard lineup. Sometimes that happens out of necessity, but not great that we are going into the year with that plan. Add onto that the fact that our lone post player is a year removed from a major knee injury. I just think we didn't have to be so thin on the front line.


Sure it could have
by IrishfaninTX  (2019-05-17 20:31:41)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

But I think a lot of aspects are to blame for the lack of depth this year. It's rare that 4 starters are all in the same class. That probably scared off a few recruits who wanted immediate playing time and also Jackie still had another year so that didn't help matters. I don't think the staff anticipated Jackie leaving early. Then we had several bigs transfer over the last few years. And a few guards when they didn't get PT. It is what it is but I think they will be better than expected by season's end.


We aren't the 1981-82 Men's Team
by Murcer68  (2019-05-16 20:47:25)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I have more optimism about this year than others. The first few months may see more losses than we are used to, but by the time March rolls around, our coaching staff is too brilliant and the players are far too athletic and intelligent for this year to be a disaster. Based on the last decade, I have faith things will work out.


With regards to the depth chart
by ndpaul  (2019-05-16 04:11:31)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I think that every scholarship player is going to have a chance to step up and start. The depth chart and lineup at the end of the season likely won't be the one from the start. Here is my educated guess end of season depth chart - some is based on recruiting rankings, but what I have seen in games. It doesn't make too much sense to separate 1 guards from 2 etc. because the best will play - and we don't have a 1 that has a lock on the positon.

Destiny Walker - G - Presuming that she stays healthy
Kaitlyn Gilbert - G - my dark horse - based on her level of play right before getting injured. Health is huge issue - doubt she starts the season as one of the first five.
Anaya Peoples - G - just a hunch - based on playmaking ability and ranking
Brunelle - G/W 3/4 (I see her developing a KLS type of player)
Vaughn at the 5...- this is probably the only lock to start by necessity

As for the rest:
Nixon: Was heir PG but struggled most of 2019 before getting injured. Could break through. We shall see.
Prohaska: When you are designated as a "hustle player", that's fine and you become a fan favorite. She does have a chance to step up but I think that the higher ranked players in HS will get upper hand.
Costgrove - Hopefully she has a transformation and turns it around in the athtletic/aggressive department. Her shooting should come around and we will need it.
Walk-on turned scholarship player name alludes me: I think it is a reward scholarship - but like everyone else, they will all get a chance.

Again, this mostly speculation and someone elses guess can be as good as mine. Should be fun to watch how it will shake down.



From my perspective, Jordan Nixon played fairly well until
by MPG  (2019-05-16 10:34:50)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

she had the concussion vs. DePaul. She had held her own on the offensive end as the starter while Marina was injured. After Jordan's first injury, she didn't look as confident and her play relected that. We'll see if a transfer point guard appears. If not, then I will assume that Jordan will be the starter to begin the season.


Another reason Peoples and Westbrook may ascend..
by ndpaul  (2019-05-17 05:44:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I think they can play D at a higher level and maybe defend the perimeter. That and going off of rankings.


Did you mean Walker instead of Westbrook?
by Fighting_Artichoke  (2019-05-17 11:56:46)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

It doesn't seem like Muffet sees Destinee as a PG. When Jordan sits (for rest or foul issues), it will probably be PG by committee (Peoples, Gilbert, etc.) That worked out well the past 2 years, but didn't work out well in the past when Skylar and then Lindsey ran the point. When those two sat, our offense and ball-handling suffered.


Yes, walker.. and regarding Jordan..
by ndpaul  (2019-05-18 07:16:06)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I truly think Jordan is not heir apparent to start at pg unless her assist to turnover ratio has a major turnaround AND she plays a lot better than she has shown. I think if there is separation, the best 5 will play. Right now, she may start but she is part of the rotation. Let’s see what happens.


She was a freshman
by IrishfaninTX  (2019-05-18 17:11:53)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that nerves played a very big part of how she played last year. Some players come in with a lot of confidence and others are full of nerves and take longer for the talent to shine.


Jordan
by hempfield75  (2019-05-18 21:13:26)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Let us not forget she had an injury filled freshman year, including a severe
concussion she never fully recovered from.

SEG/Chief


One of the keys to the year ...
by PWK2  (2019-05-16 08:43:42)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

is getting shooting from Prohaska. Her form looks pretty good, but she is not a volume shooter. I'd like to see her more than double her shot attempts per game next year. I hope she's shooting a zillion jump shots per day in the offseason.


I hate to say this, but
by SorinBasement  (2019-05-16 11:38:37)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I think Prohaska will have a difficult time scoring much. She showed a nice medium range jump shot last year when she was on the floor with four superstars. She was almost always the least concerning player on the floor from the perspective of the opposing team. If she's in the regular rotation, or even starts as some have suggested, I think she'll be physically and athletically overmatched.

When she does score, I expect it to be on hustling, tough drives to the basket.


I think she's reasonably strong/athletic
by Orangutan  (2019-05-16 12:07:42)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

She might not look it because she's not super cut/muscular (like Jackie) and because she's white. But I don't think she'll be physically overmatched.

She's not going to create her own shot often. But I want to see her take the open jumper consistently when it is there.


My concern with her and almost the whole returning
by Tim Kelley  (2019-05-16 13:05:23)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

team is their hands...ability to grasp the ball, receive and make and passes. Way too many “fumbles” last year from the returnees. That needs to improve. It can affect players both on offense and defense. As with most every other aspect of the game, we were spoiled by last year’s starters in this regard.


Not to kick a dead horse..
by TWO  (2019-05-16 10:38:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

but in retrospect how would Dara Mabry have fit into the 2019- 2020 team.


Eh, we have plenty of young guards
by Orangutan  (2019-05-16 12:03:05)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

That's not really the problem. Could use her outside shooting, I guess.


& her tenacity
by ram  (2019-05-16 17:50:00)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

she is clutch and might be the most competitive of the 3 Mabreys

I watched severeal VT games this year and I was impressed


Well maybe we aren’t giving up but
by ndpaul  (2019-05-17 05:39:17)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

MM does not see any other grad transfer that is a good fit. All that’s said premise of my original post is about to be undone: apparently there is an imminent transfer announcement ?