entry into next year's Champions League, does it push another specific team out of next year's CL?
Imagine (it wouldn't be hard to imagine given the way the EPL season ended) that ManU finished 4th, Spurs finished 5th and Arsenal were 6th.
Then if both Spurs AND Arsenal won their cups and auto-qualified to Champions League, only then would the usually-safe 4th place in EPL get bumped out to the Europa League.
But that isn't an option as both the CL contenders auto-qualified.
It’s not a slot allocated to anything else.
If Chelsea wins, nothing changes for the PL. If Arsenal wins, they get added to the mix. They no longer bump people from the league that wins either the UCL or Europa (as Chelsea did to Spurs when they won UCL a few years back)
Obviously, both Liverpool and Spurs are already qualified for next year, so no changes will take place with PL teams because of the UCL final.
See the link for some more information:
"Chelsea already booked a Champions League group stage place by finishing 3rd in the Premier League. Arsenal is already in next season's Europa League but could upgrade to the Champions League by beating Chelsea in Wednesday's final. If Chelsea wins, that extra Champions League group stage spot goes to Lyon. How one Premier League club winning this season's Europa League benefits a Ligue 1 club is down to UEFA logic. It's because Ligue 1 is the highest ranked domestic league without four Champions League group stage spots, an indication of how silly all of this has gotten"
Arsenal winning bumps Lyon out....which means the answer to the question is yes
One more team has to go through a qualifying round, that's all.
Think of it more like this: an extra team gets in automatically if the EL winner doesn't qualify through a league slot. Because it's the EL's slot, it's just a gift to a non-automatic side.
From my reading his question was:
Do we know who will be bounced from the CL group stage if Arsenal wins or is that team TBD based on qualifiers or random draw?
You guys can talk about 3rd qualifying round vs group stage but I didn’t think that was what he was asking. I thought he was just asking if we know whose slot Arsenal will take.
Nothing changes
Chelsea plays in the group stage they have already qualified for
Lyon plays in the qualifying round based on their position on the Ligue 1 table
The Turkish and Austrian runners up play in the qualifying round based on being runners up
Nothing changes if Arsenal win.
The changes only happen if Chelsea wins because they will occupy two group stage spots so everyone moves up.
Arsenal winning changes nothing
No one is disagreeing with your analysis - I just don’t think you understand his question.
So put down the keyboard and let him choose to say something.
“If Arsenal beats Chelsea tomorrow and thus earns entry into next year's Champions League, does it push another specific team out of next year's CL?”
The answer to that question is no. No one gets pushed out. There is no scenario where a team is pushed out or has their current situation change if Arsenal wins. Nothing changes if Arsenal wins. Nothing.
The only way things change is if Chelsea wins
What are you going to do when he says you misinterpreted him? Tell him he’s wrong about the meaning of his question?
Yes, to DD's point, I am assuming that if Arsenal wins and is "in", then someone is out, unless the European Cup Champion League has an elastic number of entries. That's what I was driving at from a simpleton's point-of-view.
Is your question
A) whether someone is bumped completely out of the Champions League entirely if Arsenal has won
or did you mean
B) Lyon, if Arsenal has won, wouldn’t have been moved up to the group stage and would “lose out” by not being in the group stage if Arsenal won?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I’ll hang up and listen
There is a spot for Arsenal (or whomever the EL champion is, which is a group stage Pot 1 place), that is not tied to anyone else in the competition.
If they win, no one will be out. If Chelsea wins, they will occupy two spots, so people will move up. The same will happen with the UCL. If Spurs win, they get a group stage pot 1 spot, versus their 4th place group spot. People will move up (but no one new will be added). If Liverpool win, they already have a group stage spot, but will move to pot 1, and others will move up (neither Liverpool or Tottenham can hold two group stage spots)
But no matter what happens today and in the UCL final, no one will be bumped from the competition. No one will be added either. Just movement among the group/qualifying rounds.
Arsenal winning changes nothing (doesn’t bump Lyon out as you suggested, they have not qualified for the group stage)
This isn’t next level argumentative, it’s crystal clear.
He asked about Arsenal winning. Nothing changes in any way shape or form if Arsenal wins today. Chelsea stays in the spot they qualified for in the group stage. Lyon stays in the qualifying round they are currently in based on their Ligue 1 finish, etc. There is currently 1 open slot in pot 1 of the group stage for the EL winner. Arsenal can fill that spot by winning. If Chelsea wins they will occupy two group stage spots, so a few teams move up.
But if you want to wait for him to chime in and say he meant if Chelsea wins does anything change, sure, let’s wait.
Because this is hilarious
Sorry you don’t read good.
Why did you bring up the PL when the OP didn’t? Are you sure you read good?
And why do you think he used the word “specific” in the context of his question?
There’s reasons to think GKC was asking what I believe he was asking and you have your reasons too. But what’s different is you’re going to argue a simple matter of clarification in 5 different posts rather than just stop making a fool of yourself.
I’ll take the hypocrisy ding on this one for presenting my case when it’s pretty obvious and unnecessary. I’m not going to apologize for setting you off by questioning your reading of the OP’s question.
I appreciate the effort.
I brought up the PL for two reasons
1) Arsenal is in the PL (along with Chelsea). And qualifying usually, is tied to your league and table position based on the strength of the league.
2) The example that everyone thinks of, when a "specific" team was pushed out of the UCL was when Chelsea won the UCL and pushed Tottenham, the specific team that finished 4th in the PL that year and had, by definition, qualified for the UCL qualifying rounds because of that. When Chelsea won, it took away the 4th spot for the PL.
That's why I brought the PL up, because I'm assuming that the OP was referencing that specific example.
However, as has been noted, UEFA changed the rules after that happened.
So now, if Arsenal wins, no one is affected, and everyone goes to the spot they qualified for based on their league position, thus answering his question. I didn't read it wrong, I referenced the previous example that his question was addressing.
But hey, I'm game to keep going here. The question and answer are clear here.
Again and again and again and again it seems
It’s hilarious, you answered his question immediately with good information but the audacity of someone saying that you might be misinterpreting has basically broke your brain.
Even if I did misinterpret it, the answer doesn't change. No one is pushed "out" of the UCL.
I was waiting for the moment you said (paraphrasing) “even if I’m wrong about what the OP was asking, I’m still right and their question was wrong.”
My work here is done, thanks GKC for initiating this. I know it wasn’t what you were hoping for, but I appreciated it. I’m sure somewhere in HTowns replies is the answer to the question you actually meant.
You were.
I'm glad you enjoyed the game, you were still 100% wrong (not the OP or it's question). Yes, we could read it to be if Lyon or LASK is getting bumped by Arsenal winning, but they are being bumped "up" not "out".
You're attempt to suggest there is another reading of the OP is what was wrong here.
There is no alternative reading of the OP that makes your statements valid, but hey, glad you're entertained.
Da fuck is wrong with both of you?
And in the end, right
Is this what it means to be tired of winning?
"Yes, to DD's point, I am assuming that if Arsenal wins and is "in", then someone is out, unless the European Cup Champion League has an elastic number of entries. That's what I was driving at from a simpleton's point-of-view."
He clarified, and while he said to your point, if you look at the bold part, you were wrong, and the other posters and I accurately answered his question, that no one is "out".
He was asking if a team gets bumped from the competition, which they don't. So the Lyon, and other stuff you brought up was wrong. I read his question right, and answered correctly. No one gets bumped from the competition if Arsenal wins.
You can’t possibly be this bad at understanding GK’s posts
Not really
See the link:
"Should Arsenal fail to claim the Champions League spot on offer for winning the Europa League, that place would then go to the third-placed Ligue 1 side who usually have to go through a qualifying round to reach the lucrative group stages.
The winners of the Europa League go straight into the group stages.
This wouldn’t be the first time that Lyon have benefitted this way, either. They also got straight into the group stages last season because Atletico Madrid won the Europa League."
Lyon is in, the only question is whether they go straight to the group stages or not.
If Lyon goes to the group stages, because Arsenal lost, then there are changes to the qualifying rounds.
I don't think someone gets bumped if Arsenal win, it just changes who jumps to the group stage and who stays in the qualifying stages.
There is also this, from Wikipedia:
Wikipedia Article on 2019/2020 UCL
"England (ENG): The winners of the 2018–19 UEFA Europa League will be a team from England. If the already-qualified Chelsea win, the following changes to the access list will be made:
Lyon (France) enter the group stage instead of the third qualifying round.
İstanbul Başakşehir (Turkey) and LASK Linz (Austria) enter the third qualifying round instead of the second qualifying round."
Right now, it's this
Chelsea - qualified for group stages because of 3rd place finish in EPL
Lyon - qualified for the third qualifying round by finishing 3rd in Ligue 1
Basaksehir and Lask Linz - qualified for the second qualifying round by finishing 2nd in the Turkish league and 2nd in the Austrian Bundesliga.
If Chelsea win
They have already qualified for the group stages. However, they'd move to Pot 1 as a result of winning. There would be an open group stage spot that would go to Lyon. Because Lyon would be moving out of the third qualifying round, it would bump up Basaksehir and Lask into that round.
If Arsenal win
Chelsea stays in the group stages (not pot 1)
Lyon stays in third qualifying round
Basaksehir and Lask stay in second qualifying round
Arsenal qualify for UCL group stage in pot 1
Basically, they have a blank group stage spot for the Europa Winner right now. If Chelsea win, it moves people up. If Arsenal win, they fill the spot. No one gets bumped out by Arsenal winning.