The Real Student Loan Crisis Isn't From Undergraduate...
by FL_Irish (2024-02-07 10:59:59)
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...Degrees.

Although I don't necessarily agree with everything in it, I think this is a pretty good analysis of the two real issues surrounding the cost of higher education and student debt:

1. Predatory master's programs

2. The "college for all" mentality and the resulting admission of lots of students with little prospect of actually graduating








It has been this way for a long time.
by EricCartman  (2024-02-08 14:48:20)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

If you want to tell your friends that you have a degree from NYU or Columbia, those schools will gladly sell you graduate degree for $200k.

On your second point, these are the people that are really in trouble. They have all of the debt associated with college, and none of the additional earning potential associated with college.
You forgot to mention the "You can get a degree in that"...
by Brahms  (2024-02-07 13:39:24)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

...departments; i.e., the proliferation of niche degrees of all sorts.
That's a subcomponent of predatory master's. *
by FL_Irish  (2024-02-07 14:35:45)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

From respectable institutions, no less. *
by Brahms  (2024-02-07 14:48:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

Outside of MBAs, are there any masters degrees that really
by Tex Francisco  (2024-02-07 13:59:46)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

have significant ROI in terms of earnings or opportunities? Masters degrees in the liberal arts, fine arts, and social sciences all seem (on average) to be money losers. Masters degrees in things like public policy probably open some doors for people, but even then, I would think that's only true for the top schools. Masters degrees in engineering certainly can be helpful, but I still think it's case-by-case depending on career path. I'm struggling to think of many masters degrees that are, as a general rule, ROI positive.
I'd also argue that MBAs in general don't have much of an
by krudler  (2024-02-08 11:58:03)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

ROI anymore unless it's from one of the elite names. Almost a price of entry.
One obvious one is "Data Science"
by Brahms  (2024-02-07 14:34:10)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

....although those programs can be all over the map.

In my experience, some quant-related fields (Statistics, Biostatistics, GIS) can have a payoff. Quant social sciences (Econ, maybe legit sociology or poly sci) can, but largely because the person has advanced quant skills. The recent spates of tech layoffs may change that. Don't know about Comp Sci / Comp-E.

MPHs are all over the map -- an MPH in biostats probably has a payoff, an MPH in health communications, probably not. A place like DC is crawling with MPH, MPP, MPA jobs -- but also with a glut of these persons.

I will say that it seems increasingly jobs require an MA/MS. So, maybe in that sense a generic MA/MS kind of helps pays for itself. Maybe.

yeah, the non-MBA business masters in things like
by Tex Francisco  (2024-02-07 15:15:56)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

accountancy, business analytics, quant, etc. seem like they probably have a lot of value for certain people on certain paths.

I’ve noticed one thing in my area and that is teachers in
by The Holtz Room  (2024-02-07 14:23:40)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

the public school system here get an online masters and then get a significant pay bump merely based on having it.

And we’re talking barely accredited online schools.

I assume it’s in some contract language from way back that if you have a masters, you get $x more regardless of where it came from.
Most school systems require masters for administrators
by Irish_Texan  (2024-02-08 10:43:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

So if you want to move up into education administration, even just to be an elementary school principal, the masters opens up that career path and a significant pay bump, although still on the low end of things overall since its education
There is a real need for STEM teachers across the US.
by Brahms  (2024-02-07 14:34:54)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

So, what you say makes sense.
I’m taking about elementary school teachers.
by The Holtz Room  (2024-02-07 17:09:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

STEM in these parts is what you don’t want to find in your dimebag.
A subset of graduate programs are among the greatest sources
by Raoul  (2024-02-07 12:25:33)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

source of burdensome student loan debt for sure. Graduate programs like MDs, DOs, DVMs, DPharms, ODs, DPTs, and PhDs (often funded with actual work on campus) are certainly drivers of debt volume but they are not the ones racking up debt that will not be paid back.

As you say, predatory Master's are a big driver of the problems. Colleges love Master's programs because as the article notes they don’t offer much financial aid (scholarships and grants) but students are able to borrow quite heavily for the US government. These students seek a credential and often a school brand name in hopes of earning more. But for many of these programs, the incremental income expectations are unwarranted, especially in liberal arts or what I’d call vocational humanities programs. On the flip side, they tend to be very profitable for the schools because they leverage existing teaching resources and administration without the undergraduate hassle of room and board or hand-holding of young folks just entering adulthood. In addition, you have "facilitators" like 2U, Inc [Nasdaq: TWOU now trading <$1 but ~$100 in 2018] with whom the schools willingly partner to drive volume in programs - typically online - resulting in greater program profitability with even less investment by the partner school. Incidentally, 2U built its business on its prominent affiliations with USC and UNC. See the link attached below for all its partners, though they are kind of in trouble now and schools (like USC) increasingly don't want to associate with them. They are sleazy and too unsupervised by their partners. 2U involvement is a bad sign IMO for a program. To me it means the partner school does not give a shit and just is grabbing for money. 2U really specialize in these predatory Master's programs and they grew fast because they delivered money to schools who willingly outsource the parts they don't like to dirty their hands with. Again, USC was a real "leader" in this approach.

Below are the median debt levels of a selection of Master's programs. Note how there is almost an inverse relationship between the median amount of money borrowed and the likely financial prospects for said degree in the market place (not shown, but you can definitely envision it). So the most debt is going to those with the least favorable immediate job prospects. And a big reason is the guys at the bottom are probably working while they get their Master's and/or get tuition help from their place of work who actually values the extra education.

Visual and Performing Arts, General $63,830
Radio, Television, and Digital Communication $55,554
Social Sciences, General $54,554
Philosophy $54,260
Journalism $53,213
Clinical, Counseling, and Applied Psychology $51,888
Sociology $46,871
English Language and Literature, General $44,301
Political Science and Government $43,853
Arts, Entertainment, and Media Management $41,238
Information Sciences, General $40,579
Marketing $35,738
Computer Science $35,301
Education, General $29,434
Accounting $28,212
Mechanical Engineering $26,775
Civil Engineering $26,180

Note: Data from Education Initiative last updated August 2023