One of the most successful ND grads on Wall Streer was a PLS major.

College is not a trade school. Art majors are people too.

If not, then there are two PLS majors doing really well on Wall Street....

has a BBA. I think in accounting but perhaps finance.

Although there is one other guy that had made a shitload of real money in hedge fund management and then was an early cryptoncurrency believer and may be the wealthiest ND alum. Not PLS.

issued by upper echelon schools, and those issued by lower tier institutions.

Students at upper echelon schools are smart as hell to begin with. Regardless of their degree, they can find their way in the world, and likely thrive.

But the best a student can do is to get into a Cal State school, for instance, they're far better off pursuing a 'trade' degree (i.e., accounting, hotel management, teaching, etc.) then a liberal arts degree, at least in instances where they have to borrow the money to attend. Students attending on their parents dime are a different story.

Stifle it. I know about 10.000x more about commercial law than you do about financial statements or running a business. All of that I managed to learn based on the foundation of my two business degrees, both of which you deem as worthless. I

I don’t denigrate your law degree or whatever the hell your undergrad degree was. I don’t care what it was. My undergraduate accounting degree is every bit is valuable to me as whatever the fuck your undergraduate degree was to you.

only to take issue when someone also arbitrarily assigns value to yours?

What am I missing here?

Seems to me that value is defined in many ways, financial and not. And if financial return is the only metric by which to judge, why didn’t you just re-route your kid to a degree that would have provided a great financial return? It’s already been shown that college degreed individuals will make much more money over their working career as a whole.

Or, and work with me here, is everyone’s pathway and contributions unique? Even art majors. Should we be subsidizing and paying those off? That’s up for discussion. But “garbage” degrees? Come on.

Is a garbage degree. The student will never earn enough in additional income to justify spending that amount on tuition. Same goes for a photography grad degree from NYU.

That’s what I think of when someone says “garbage degree.”

Then the asset you bought wasn’t worth it. The degree is garbage to the extent the holder couldn’t monetize it. Across denigrates all business degrees on this forum continually. All of them. I don’t denigrate any one particular degree.

My son is already earning more in his field than he would’ve earned in the field he was pursuing. He was not cut out for college. After 4+ years at it, it was quite clear he needed to do something else for my wallet , but more importantly, for his own mental health. He will be just fine in the field he’s in. Not all kids need to go to college and not all college degrees are valuable.

As I’m sure you know, the undeniable fact that the average college degree holder’s earning potential margin over those who don’t hold a college degree isn’t driven by the contribution of, well degrees I won’t name. Plumbers, med techs, HVAC techs out earn lots of college degree holders. Such is the interaction of supply and demand.

discussion. I place a lot of value on a solid liberal arts degree and the curriculum requirements to obtain it. Critical thinking, communication skills, and learning to be a part of a community are invaluable skills.

This has been devalued by subsidized loans and administrative greed, imo.

It is why people pay up to attend prestigious schools. They are buying the name brand associated with the school, access to the alumni network, and the opportunity to build their own network.

Spending $150k to graduate from Harvard is completely different than spending $150k to graduate from Full Sail University. If ROI is ignored, then the two degrees are equal in value?

Many people are not wired like you are.

People who are smart and motivated tend to do well in high school. Many people truly choose a school for reasons other than vocational prospects.

Motivations such as quality of program, desire to learn, desire to grow as a person, to deepen faith and understanding, or just to go to a party school like ND.

If you are touring ND, Northwestern, Duke, and Gtown, then a positive ROI is a given for most students. The only unknown is fit, which is why people visit a school and attend based on vibes.

Why do people attend college? For knowledge, or because it is a gateway to a financially secure future?

The conflation of trade schools (eg business school, most computer science, most kayak schools, etc) and universities has caused a lot of confusion.

that it's always been the main factor

...The subject matter in the subthread is whether a college degree has value if the holder is someone who borrowed less than $12,000 and in 10 years hasn't paid it off. What is anyone's basis of credibility on this issue, I wonder, other than anecdotal personal experience and their subjective interpretation of the matter?

My anecdotal personal experience: At ND I majored in music; at the University of Chicago I got a master's in musicology. Along the way I got a real estate license, then became a commercial r.e. appraiser; and most of my work is in litigation circumstances. At Chicago I borrowed about $18,000 and paid it off in about 12 years.

I've been asked more than once in depositions what I think my music education has contributed to my current career. This is my answer: At both ND and Chicago, I learned how to identify a problem, gather information, assess it, and write something clear and concise that was intended to persuade the reader that my solution was reasonable; and to do rigorously and diligently. If one applies oneself in college, you can learn this lesson well, regardless of the major.

able to pay off their loans. I do not agree with analyzing a college degree from a purely, or even primarily, ROI perspective. Cost should play a role but I believe there is inherent value in collegiate education.

Plenty of trade schools receive federal funding (which I happen to think is a good thing too).

And participants in SAVE also keep their promises. Default disqualifies a borrower from participation.

when you say "there is inherent value in a collegiate education." Your statement would be more accurate if you removed the word "collegiate."

There is inherent value in gaining knowledge and educating yourself by whatever means possible. Reading books, speaking to experts in the field, learning via apprenticeship, watching informational videos, deep-diving materials on the internet, and the list goes on.....

At one point, college may have served that purpose as well, but these days it's primary role is to produce a piece of paper (the degree) that theoretically makes you attractive to a future employer.

And sadly, many degrees these days are indeed garbage because they cannot fulfill that fundamental goal. The knowledge that you gain from a college education is not worthless, but it can certainly be gained many other places at a fraction of the cost.

He said he went to college and grad school mainly because back in the 70s that was the only way he could get access to the equipment he needed to make movies. His advice to current kids with today's technology is that if you want to make movies, you don't need to go to college. Instead, just start making movies and build a portfolio of work. The same thought process can now extended to education more generally.

jaded and cynical view of higher education. I don’t really know what to say other than I find your view to be sad and impoverished.

Let’s take your plumber. A good one is well-paid, well in excess of college graduates who toil in lots of low-paying jobs. Now, further assume this plumber likes his job and it supports his lifestyle and his dependents. He doesn’t own a college degree and he has no student debt.

I believe your argument is that your plumber is somehow impoverished if he doesn’t own a college degree?

I suppose I shake my head like a disappointed father at that, too.

No, I don’t think anyone without a college degree is impoverished. I was describing that other poster’s view of college ed, not people.

Well, except for the deadbeats that didn’t pay for it. You’re damn right it’s owned.

I am envisioning you shaking your head at me like a disappointed father, but also note a complete lack of substance in your reply.

You go on seeing the world as you wish it were - hopefully it works out for you.

But I dream of a better world. And I support policies I think will bring that better world about.

Are all people college graduates or just more than today? Should everyone go to college? If not, who should and shouldn’t, and on what basis should we judge that decision? And once we decide that, who should pay for that degree and in what percentage share? Or should college be free to all?

Someone land a job in ANY field. Doesn’t even have to be in the art field. There is no reason to go to college unless it leads to gainful employment. That’s why trade schools and apprentice programs exist. My son should not have gone to college. He is now a trade vocation, apprentice program and he and his family are very happy that he is doing that instead of toileting unsuccessfully to get a degree that would be useless to him..