...Going back to ancient times, it used to be the landed/noble classes that looked down on the jolly numbers; now a lot of the divide seems to be about whether one makes a living using muscles above or below the neckline.

I agree with those who note below that you can make a darned good living in a blue-collar job. My only caveat is that I know a lot of people (myself included) who moved to using the muscle between the ears a long time ago, and if the mind and body hold up, could continue to work full or part time making a good $ until age 70, 75, even 80, if one chose to.

You don't see many 70 or 80 year olds swinging a hammer, doing plumbing, or cutting sheet metal ductwork. So part of the elitism might be that those of us who do mental labor will consciously or subconsciously pat ourselves on the back (or however you'd put it) for not having to subject our bodies to the kind of physical stress that factory workers, carpenters, plumbers, et al. go through every day.

I wasn't able to read the whole essay (paywalled) but listened to the podcast this morning and thought it very interesting. Ungar-Sargon made particularly good points about the working class tiers, the impacts of unprecedented immigration on the working class, and the drivers of our political divides.

She was convinced, based on many conversations with conservatives, the Republican party was dead unless it moves its positions in line with Former-president Trump. I think I've heard that before but not so emphatically.

I agree, perhaps naively, that the Democrats OR the Republicans have an opportunity to reach a significant portion of the electorate (think she said about 70%) by adjusting policies to be more working class friendly. It's amazing that neither do.

Thanks for sharing. Bari Weiss is doing some excellent work.

Why would we not want our Executive Branch to enforce the laws of the nation? If you don't like the laws, that's fine. It is the job of the Legislative Branch to change law (including immigration law).

The poster mentioned policies targetting folks with less than a college education with respect to which the Republicans need to follow Trump more to prosper with these folks.

He also wondered why the Republicans and Democrats haven't done more of these politically profitable policies.

If one of these policies is immigration control, it doesn't seem to be one of those policies with respect to which he Republicans are insufficiently Trumpian, but who knows?

My question was not: "which policies should I be for or against?"

The policies that I recall are:
— republicans should enhance access to affordable health care and be more selective in foreign interventions
— democrats should stop massive immigration as it stagnates wages/hurts the lowest tier of the working class, stop courting the elite (social, environmental, economic policies), et.al.

I think the author has a better feel for the mood of non-college educated Americans than insight into which policies would (a) help them or (b) convince them that they would be helpful.

discussing the very real reasons why rural area voters are dissatisfied loss of population, loss of jobs. Mentioned the most recent cenus was the first time the majority of counties lost population.

They discussed the fact while Republicans have tapped into that dissatisfaction for votes but have not proposed policis that would reverse those issues. Belief was if Dems would speak to policies that might address them they have an opportunituy for votes.

what are those policies? The Republicans reduce corporate taxes and try to kill Obamacare. Yet those counties remain bright red.

Culture wars seem to rule the day. The Democrats could certainly move toward the center on some of those culture war issues but would it do them any good?

Amazon for my next order. I have already purchased White Rural Rage in which the authors' (based upon a podcast where I heard them interviewed) views more are closer to ours. It will be interesting to read them back to back and compare the ideas.

Totally off topic I am very excited that a Barnes and Noble is opening a 5 minute walk from my house so I can stop feeding the Amazon beast for books.

My next book is one where the authors have been making the rounds that I think has a different view so will be interesting to read them back to back.

...problems of the working class is for them to stop being working class. No wonder they feel abandoned.

has always been part of the American Dream, and implicit in that in the minds of American elites of both parties is a transition from the blue collar world to the white collar world. Being blue collar is viewed by elites as something between a sacrifice and exploitation, not a fulfilling life that one would wish for their children or grandchildren.

As well as with what Kbyrnes said in this thread. Obviously, if you go about it the right way, you can make a good living in certain blue collar jobs. However, it comes with a bunch of downside, including but not limited to the following:

1) It's hard work. It can wear on your body and not everyone wants to come home from 8-10 hours of hard labor every day for 40+ years and feel worn down, sore, and spent. And you cannot keep that up once you get into your 60s and in some cases earlier.

2) These jobs come with much less flexibility in many cases. Especially until you've worked your way up to own your own company. There is no working from home and many of the other perks of white collar work. It's harder to take time off to take your kids to doctor appointments, sports practice and other things. Often times, trade jobs require weekend or even night work.

3) Some people want to be more mentally / intellectually challenged and there is a good argument to say that it leads to a more fulfilling life. It's not for everyone, but I can say I'd get pretty bored as a plumber or HVAC serviceman. I enjoy solving complex problems, being mentally challenged, and experiencing new things regularly in my work.

4) White collar work comes with a lot of other perks like travel (could also be a downside for some), experiencing meals/entertainment that you would not have access to on your own, etc.

5) Not beating around the bush, it also comes with a certain level of prestige and always has. This is something as old as civilization and we're not going to just change human nature.

Seriously, do you know any?

I personally know dozens of blue-collar workers that not only make a good living but are very satisfied with their chosen profession.

Maybe I'm missing the point of your post as I don't think it's very unusual to enjoy life doing a blue-collar job.

...it.

What the hell is an "elite", anyway? It's painting with one hell of a broad brush. Are we elite because we're ND grads? I have a hell of a lot of friends who graduated from ND and are very successful, whose fathers were blue collar.

what other people really think.

In the interest of brevity and flow, I think it's ok to make statements like "men are taller than women" without delving into the specifics of averages, bell curves, standard deviations, etc. and also without citing sources. As it's a message board, I also don't feel the need to preface every sentence with "in my opinion" or "based on my perception." Unlike many on the board, I'm very opening to hearing alternative explanations or even to be proven wrong.

or qualifying phrases. It's the tendency to set up strawmen as foils.

sense of the word which implies some level of dishonesty or manipulation. In this thread and the one below, I'm stating opinions or beliefs that I believe to be common and prevalent even if not predominant. I'm happy to hear alternative opinions or to be proven wrong. You seem to be harassing me for not meeting your burden of proof more than debating, which does not make for a fun or compelling message board IMO.

I think ufl puts too fine a point on it. I think you are a little fucked in the head. You still worry about SAT scores and law school ranks and all sorts of things that long ago should have faded into Bolivian.

So too your strange notion of blue collar and white collar. I think electricians and firefighters and carpenters and other trades and the like have it all figured out. Start earning $100k by age 22, do not pass go, do not pay $400k in tuition. Retire by 50. Fuckin A.

Attributing unstated views to folks on the other side of the political divide seems a lot like setting up straw men to me. Perhaps my terminology is imperfect but I don't think it implies that such attribution is insincere.

One may sincerely demonize other folks. Although I don't think you crossed the line into demonization, I don't think the sincerety one's opinions of other folks' private views is the crucial issue.

"College for all" etc.

in the sense that everyone should go to college (maybe I just missed it). I have heard it in the sense that college should be available to those who don't have the funds but have the desire and the aptitude. Perhaps I'm just slow to pick up on slogans.

A lot of people do, however, have an attitude that college should be the default for anyone who clears the minimum intellectual/academic bar for going to a college. I think this proposition is debatable, and opinions on it are rapidly changing.

on the right. The reality is that both are equally out of reach for many people. The Trump team (I doubt it was Trump himself) seemed to recognize this and focused on brining jobs back and keeping jobs in America. I think he was largely full of sh!t and bad policy ideas, but the message resonated.

A common theme here and other places is that their chosen political party has abandoned them. It's certainly true of the GOP and the Democrats run the same risk. The partisan divide is more apparent among the elected officials than it is with the voters. The (mis)characterization of voters of the other party only accentuates the problem. Our problems are much more entrenched than our current choice of presidential candidates, but moreso political leaders oprating in bubbles that ignore the collective wisdom of the people tghey supposedly serve.