The idea of your kids and grandkids doing better than you
by Tex Francisco (2024-04-02 17:07:23)
Edited on 2024-04-02 17:10:57

In reply to: Collectively, we've decided that the "solution" to the...  posted by FL_Irish

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has always been part of the American Dream, and implicit in that in the minds of American elites of both parties is a transition from the blue collar world to the white collar world. Being blue collar is viewed by elites as something between a sacrifice and exploitation, not a fulfilling life that one would wish for their children or grandchildren.

I agree with this
by Jimbo Irish  (2024-04-04 11:35:47)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

As well as with what Kbyrnes said in this thread. Obviously, if you go about it the right way, you can make a good living in certain blue collar jobs. However, it comes with a bunch of downside, including but not limited to the following:

1) It's hard work. It can wear on your body and not everyone wants to come home from 8-10 hours of hard labor every day for 40+ years and feel worn down, sore, and spent. And you cannot keep that up once you get into your 60s and in some cases earlier.

2) These jobs come with much less flexibility in many cases. Especially until you've worked your way up to own your own company. There is no working from home and many of the other perks of white collar work. It's harder to take time off to take your kids to doctor appointments, sports practice and other things. Often times, trade jobs require weekend or even night work.

3) Some people want to be more mentally / intellectually challenged and there is a good argument to say that it leads to a more fulfilling life. It's not for everyone, but I can say I'd get pretty bored as a plumber or HVAC serviceman. I enjoy solving complex problems, being mentally challenged, and experiencing new things regularly in my work.

4) White collar work comes with a lot of other perks like travel (could also be a downside for some), experiencing meals/entertainment that you would not have access to on your own, etc.

5) Not beating around the bush, it also comes with a certain level of prestige and always has. This is something as old as civilization and we're not going to just change human nature.
That's a whole bunch of nonsense. *
by Kali4niaND  (2024-04-03 15:21:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

Please elaborate, and I'll be happy to go back and forth. *
by Tex Francisco  (2024-04-03 16:48:02)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

A skilled blue collar worker can make a damn good living
by sprack  (2024-04-03 09:54:14)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

Seriously, do you know any?
Blue collar workers absolutely can make a great living
by ndsapper  (2024-04-03 12:30:20)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

I personally know dozens of blue-collar workers that not only make a good living but are very satisfied with their chosen profession.

Maybe I'm missing the point of your post as I don't think it's very unusual to enjoy life doing a blue-collar job.

Yes, we're agreeing *
by sprack  (2024-04-03 12:31:38)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

I don't think he's endorsing that viewpoint, just describing
by FL_Irish  (2024-04-03 10:07:02)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

...it.
Correct. *
by Tex Francisco  (2024-04-03 10:20:00)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

My apologies, then
by sprack  (2024-04-03 12:32:04)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

What the hell is an "elite", anyway? It's painting with one hell of a broad brush. Are we elite because we're ND grads? I have a hell of a lot of friends who graduated from ND and are very successful, whose fathers were blue collar.

You have a remarkable talent for discerning
by ufl  (2024-04-03 08:42:40)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

what other people really think.
This is a message board, not an academic journal.
by Tex Francisco  (2024-04-03 10:18:43)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

In the interest of brevity and flow, I think it's ok to make statements like "men are taller than women" without delving into the specifics of averages, bell curves, standard deviations, etc. and also without citing sources. As it's a message board, I also don't feel the need to preface every sentence with "in my opinion" or "based on my perception." Unlike many on the board, I'm very opening to hearing alternative explanations or even to be proven wrong.
My problem is not the lack of footnotes
by ufl  (2024-04-03 10:29:18)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

or qualifying phrases. It's the tendency to set up strawmen as foils.
I'm not setting up strawmen, at least in the traditional
by Tex Francisco  (2024-04-03 10:45:04)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

sense of the word which implies some level of dishonesty or manipulation. In this thread and the one below, I'm stating opinions or beliefs that I believe to be common and prevalent even if not predominant. I'm happy to hear alternative opinions or to be proven wrong. You seem to be harassing me for not meeting your burden of proof more than debating, which does not make for a fun or compelling message board IMO.
Allow me
by ACross  (2024-04-04 19:52:09)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

I think ufl puts too fine a point on it. I think you are a little fucked in the head. You still worry about SAT scores and law school ranks and all sorts of things that long ago should have faded into Bolivian.

So too your strange notion of blue collar and white collar. I think electricians and firefighters and carpenters and other trades and the like have it all figured out. Start earning $100k by age 22, do not pass go, do not pay $400k in tuition. Retire by 50. Fuckin A.
I was noting a pattern...see my post below
by ufl  (2024-04-03 10:51:50)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

Attributing unstated views to folks on the other side of the political divide seems a lot like setting up straw men to me. Perhaps my terminology is imperfect but I don't think it implies that such attribution is insincere.

One may sincerely demonize other folks. Although I don't think you crossed the line into demonization, I don't think the sincerety one's opinions of other folks' private views is the crucial issue.
Fair amount of evidence in this case though, no?
by FL_Irish  (2024-04-03 10:07:57)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

"College for all" etc.
I've never heard of that slogan
by ufl  (2024-04-03 10:34:05)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

in the sense that everyone should go to college (maybe I just missed it). I have heard it in the sense that college should be available to those who don't have the funds but have the desire and the aptitude. Perhaps I'm just slow to pick up on slogans.
Very few people think everyone should go to college.
by Tex Francisco  (2024-04-03 10:56:43)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

A lot of people do, however, have an attitude that college should be the default for anyone who clears the minimum intellectual/academic bar for going to a college. I think this proposition is debatable, and opinions on it are rapidly changing.

"college for all" on the left and "you can start a business"
by Tex Francisco  (2024-04-03 10:29:17)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Cannot reply

on the right. The reality is that both are equally out of reach for many people. The Trump team (I doubt it was Trump himself) seemed to recognize this and focused on brining jobs back and keeping jobs in America. I think he was largely full of sh!t and bad policy ideas, but the message resonated.