A Premature Playoff Conversation

Since it’s a bye week for Notre Dame and the Fighting Irish have only one loss to date, my thoughts drifted to the initial rankings to be issued by the playoff committee on November 3, and what help Notre Dame may need to slide into a top four spot at the end of the season. Of course, winning the rest of its games is the first step, and that may not even be enough.

Let’s look at the teams ranked above or near the Irish in the current AP Poll, and then consider the picture from the conference perspective.

1. Ohio State (7-0) – The head-to-head battle against Michigan State on November 21 should decide which team from the East side of the Big-10 gets to play Iowa, the most likely representative from the West. Go Blew The problem for the Buckeyes is they have to travel to Ann Arbor the very next week to play a very angry bunch of Wolverines, who are still sore after beating themselves last week. I must confess that I don’t know how the Big-10 will decide which East team will play Iowa if Ohio State, Michigan State and Michigan each have one loss in conference play. The Buckeyes can end that speculation by defeating the two Michigan schools and Iowa in a three week period, and I would not put it past Urban Meyer. He did something quite similar last year with his third string quarterback.

2. Baylor (7-0) – The Bears also have a conference minefield to navigate during November. They will close their season with consecutive games against Oklahoma, at Oklahoma State and at TCU. If they win out, they will have earned a seat at the playoff table.

3. Utah (6-0) – The Utes have emerged in the PAC-12 South as UCLA and USC have imploded. They will have to beat the Trojans in Los Angeles this weekend and may have trouble at Washington on November 7. Beyond that, they will get ready for the conference championship game on December 5. Stanford is the likely opponent but California, whom the Utes defeated at home earlier this month, has a chance.

Baylor TCU 4. TCU (7-0) – The Horned Frogs must run the same conference gauntlet as Baylor and the Oklahoma schools. They travel to Stillwater and Norman in November before finishing at home against Baylor. Anyone who survives those tests intact will be in the final four.

5. LSU (6-0) – The Tigers lead the SEC West at the moment, but they will be tested next month. They travel to Alabama on November 7 before hosting Mississippi and Texas A&M to close the regular season. A conference championship game, likely against Florida, would be the last hurdle. LSU beat Florida last week by 35-28 in a tight game. The playoff committee would take a one-loss SEC team that won its conference championship game, but the Tigers won’t get that far if they lose to Alabama and the Tide’s only blemish in conference is an earlier loss to Mississippi.

6. Clemson (6-0) – The Irish have to be kicking themselves for letting their game with the Tigers get away. Clemson will host Florida State on November 7 to decide the Coastal Division of the ACC, and then face a mediocre South Carolina team in an out of conference battle to end the regular season. A championship game matchup with Duke or Pittsburgh would then be their final chance to impress the voters.

7. Michigan State (7-0) – After toying with Michigan for 59:50 last Saturday before putting them away, The Spartans appear to have clear sailing until the trip to Columbus on November 21. It may be a tall order to win that game, but some teams are just born lucky. If Michigan State survives the Buckeyes, they would beat Penn State in East Lansing before getting ready for the Hawkeyes in the conference championship.

Nick and Les 8. Alabama (6-1) – The Tide has no margin for error to make the conference championship game, but they may not need any. The LSU matchup should be decisive, and a win would give Nick Saban the tiebreaker over LSU and A&M in the Western Division. A trip to Auburn looms on November 28, but if Alabama is unbeaten between now and then, the Tide should roll right into the SEC championship game where they would be favored against Florida.

9. Florida State (7-0) – The Seminoles must win at Clemson to keep hope alive. If they prevail, they should be able to capture the conference championship game from Coastal Division representative Duke, Pitt, or North Carolina. The bigger problem for the Noles is a non-conference date at Florida to end the regular season.

10. Stanford (5-1) – The Cardinal have followed a bad opening day loss to Northwestern by averaging 45 points per game to win their next five contests. November’s challenges include consecutive home games against Oregon, Cal and Notre Dame to end the regular season. A conference championship matchup with Utah could follow. If the Irish beat Stanford and finish 11-1, the Cardinal will have no playoff claim even if they win the PAC-12.

12. Iowa (7-0) – While the beasts of the East knock each other around, the Hawkeyes should walk through the dregs of the Big-10 West until things get serious in the conference championship game. If they stumble against any of their remaining opponents, they won’t deserve a playoff spot even if they manage to beat the Spartans or Buckeyes on December 5.

13. Oklahoma State (7-0) – While everyone focuses on Baylor and TCU, the 14th ranked Cowboys have flown under the radar with close wins in several games. This high-wire act will probably end during a stretch where they play at Texas Tech, host TCU, travel to Baylor and entertain the Sooners.

The tenth-ranked Irish need to leapfrog several teams to enter the Promised Land, but plausible scenarios exist under which it could happen. With five major conference champions vying for a spot, the Irish must have a better resume than two of them to be voted in. Setting aside how difficult that may be or the potential for voter bias to poison the well for Notre Dame, let’s look at the variable within each of the Power Five.

Big-10

Most likely outcome – Ohio State wins out and defends its title.
Most interesting outcome, Part I – The Buckeyes, Spartans and Wolverines each end the regular season with one conference loss in the East Division.
Most interesting outcome, Part II – Iowa surprises the East representative in the championship game.
Best opportunity for Notre Dame – There is probably nothing that will preclude even a one-loss Big-Ten champion from advancing to the playoffs, unless Iowa has a bad loss in November but wins the overall title.

Big-12

Most likely outcome – The Baylor-TCU winner is undefeated and makes the playoffs.
Most interesting outcome – A one loss team emerges at the top, and that loss is an ugly one.
Best opportunity for Notre Dame – Oklahoma wins out and takes the conference title. The only common opponent between the Sooners and Irish is Texas.

ACC
Everett Golson

Most likely outcome – The Florida State – Clemson winner takes the conference title and stakes its claim for a playoff spot.
Most interesting outcome, Part I – The FSU-Clemson winner stumbles in its last regular season game against a traditional rival.
Best opportunity for Notre Dame – The FSU-Clemson winner loses the ACC championship game against a team Notre Dame will have defeated (Pitt), or a team with a lesser resume like Duke. Unfortunately for the Irish, even a one-loss champion would be a problem if it were FSU or Clemson.

SEC

Most likely outcome – The LSU – Alabama winner goes on to win the conference title and join the playoff party.
Most interesting outcome – Nick Saban leaves Alabama on November 29 to rescue USC.
Best opportunity for Notre Dame – A two-loss Florida team wins the conference championship game.

PAC-12

Most likely outcome – Utah and Stanford play for the conference title, but neither emerges undefeated.
Most interesting outcome – There isn’t one. Nobody cares about the PAC-12
Best opportunity for Notre Dame – Beat Stanford on November 28.

The view from each conference suggests the Irish have the best chance to rise above the PAC-12 champ by finishing 11-1. The toughest conference champions to unseat would be an undefeated or one-loss LSU team or a one-loss Alabama team in the SEC, and any other surviving undefeated conference champion such as Ohio State or Michigan State, Baylor or TCU, and Florida State or Clemson. Three of these six teams would indeed be easy selections to join the Bama-LSU winner if those scenarios played out, but it would be extremely rare to see so many undefeated teams at the end of the season.

There is bound to be chaos in the Big-12 with highly ranked teams losing in November. In the ACC and Big-10, an upset in the conference championship game would also create havoc and possibly an opportunity for Notre Dame. The situation won’t begin to clear up for another couple of weeks, but unforeseen upsets are welcome as long as they don’t happen to the Irish.

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38 thoughts on “A Premature Playoff Conversation

  1. I think the only three we can edge out are a 1 loss Iowa, Stanford and Pitt. Basically, we need Stanford to win the PAC 12.

    Then either Pitt to win the ACC or Iowa to lose and rebound to win the Big10. I don’t think either of those are likely.

    Given what happened last year, I think a 1 loss Big 12 team gets in no matter what. The Committee will not snub the conference two years in a row.

  2. It is a very long shot for the Irish to make the playoffs even if they win out and win out decisively. The margin of error for ND in any given year is small to non-existent. The fact that the Irish don’t play in a conference hurts them, but realistically, even if they played in the ACC and had one loss and won the conference they probably would not make the playoffs vs. a one loss SEC team, for example. That said, I am not for them joining a conference. I think there is a better chance for the Irish when and if the playoffs move to a eight team format. Meanwhile, worry about winning out and let the chips fall where they may. Strange things do happen in football, ask Michigan!

  3. Too many scenarios are out of ND’s control. People complain about the Irish not playing a conference schedule/conference championship, but in reality, our independence gives us zero margin for error (which I’m fine with). We have to go undefeated every year to have a real shot at the playoff.

  4. Vannie,

    Great article.. Thanks.. I do not think the Irish are a playoff team.. We have way too many
    holes defensively to stop Baylor, TCU, etc. Even a bad UMASS team shredded us in the first
    half!!

    If Smith and Day stay next year, I think 2016 is our year!!

  5. Thanks for the solid write up.
    Assuming the committee doesn’t include a team that did not win its conference, I think the pecking order looks about like the current coaches poll (you have Stanford #11 which is the coach’s ranking not the AP ranking). If any of the teams above ND win their conference, I think they’re probably in over an 11-1 ND team.

    Then of course, there’s my dad and folks like him that think a 10-2 ND team gets in no matter what “because they’re Notre Dame.” Actually, there might be some truth to that given the game @ Temple was selected over conference games at College Station, Tallahassee and Auburn for the primetime slot next Saturday.

    • NDBonecrusher says:

      Jason I don’t necessarily agree with your Dad, but given NDs strength of schedule for the balance of the season, if ND wins out it is difficult for me to envision that they will not be a playoff team.
      The number of teams ranked higher than ND that have yet to play each other makes (I think) it mathematically impossible to have many undefeated teams by year’s end. And if ND wins out, that would mean 3 road victories against ranked teams. I don’t know if they can do it. But if they can, I think we will be exploring how to get our hands on playoff tix.

  6. If OSU beats MSU and Michigan beats OSU, then they go Overall Record as the first tiebreaker. Michigan would be eliminated at that point (assuming OSU and MSU only have 1 loss). Then it would go to the head-to-head winner between the two remaining teams, so OSU would go to the conf. title game.

    • This isn’t quite correct. If they finish the regular season in a tie under the head-to-head scenario outlined above, the team that is ranked the highest in the Playoff Committee voting will be the East champion. That said, a two loss Michigan team won’t likely outrank either of the other two in the said voting.

      Turns out, this could be a further advantage for the East champion. They’d know for awhile who they’d play (presumably Iowa), but the West champion won’t know until the Monday after the regular season ends.

  7. To get in, a one loss Irish team is going to have to beat Stanford soundly — in a fashion similar to the way Ohio State beat Wisconsin last year. Had they beaten Wisconsin 24-21 they would not have been in the playoffs.

  8. Don’t see it happening especially because I think the Irish lose to Stanford. Give me an 11-1 season and a top tier bowl win and a 12-1 record overall.

    • Jimbo, if you think the Irish are going to lose to Stanford, then that “gives you” a 10-2 season, not 11-1. Probably still gets the Irish one of the top tier bowls as they will lose out on the playoffs with two losses, so 11-2 is quite possible following a Stanford loss. But your math was off if you think Notre Dame loses to Stanford.

  9. Why does everyone think it’s fine for us to be left out with one loss, when it’s perfectly fine for the SEC champ, Big 10, Pac 12, etc to have one loss and get in? Do we want to have to run through a brick wall to get in the playoff, have to be undefeated, while everyone else has margin for error. The fact is, we are in a horrible situation as far as access to the playoff. We will always be last in line. The playoff was made by the conferences, for the benefit of the conferences. We have no power or sway at this point. Is independence more important than winning championships? Isn’t ND football about winning championships? Or is it about being independent? What is the overarching goal of the program? I’m all for independence, but if we have to be 12-0 to get in, when Bama and others can get in no problem with a loss, it isn’t working in our favor anymore. Look at the back half of this schedule. Teams are getting into the meat of their conf schedules, and we are hoping Pitt and Temple keep winning.

    • “Why does everyone think it’s fine for us to be left out with one loss, when it’s perfectly fine for the SEC, Big 10, Pac 12, etc., *** champ *** to have one loss and get in? ”

      Well, you just made the point in your first sentence… CONFERENCE CHAMP. Meaning a 12-1 conference champion has a conference championship win on its resume while an 11-1 ND team does not. Their one loss is evaluated differently than ND’s one loss.

      Are we clear now?

      • Exactly. You are making my point for me. If an 11-1 ND is evaluated differently from a 12-1 conf champ, you are ok with that? And if you are….fine, but tell me how exactly is that a good situation for ND to be in? That is my point. We will always be last in line behind the one loss conf champs. So we need conf champs to have 2 losses to get in ahead of them. To me, that is a bad deal for ND. We are operating from a position of weakness. And don’t forget that we will have played 12 FBS schools, while most 12-1 conf champs will likely have played 11 or at most 12 FBS schools.

  10. Yeah, don’t see it happening. Defenses isn’t elite enough to compete with top 4 teams in country. On bright side, I think they could put up 21 on anyone.

  11. It may be hard for ND to get in and it is true that some of our bigger games prior to the star of the season end up being against teams that were not as good as they were predicted to be such as G Tech and USC.
    With that said regardless of who gets in both Baylor and TCU play such horrible schedules that i firmly believe neither deserves a shot. The teams they play were never supposed to be good. While they both are explosive they both are playing against a level of competition far below everyone else in the conversation–except Ohio State who also plays an embarrassing schedule

    • “With that said regardless of who gets in both Baylor and TCU play such horrible schedules that i firmly believe neither deserves a shot.”

      Agreed. Both team’s SOS is a joke. Always is, but everyone fawns all over them for what ever reason, I have no idea.

  12. I think what NDMike 2001 is saying is that he is 100% sure a one loss Stanford would eliminate ND as they already have one loss, so if they remain at one loss it would mean that they beat ND

  13. ND has zero margin error, but in most years can become a de facto conference champ over either the PAC-12 or ACC. Unfortunately, this year, the loss to Clemson shut the ACC door.

    The path to the playoff is now solely through Stanford, and hoping that the Cardinal win the PAC with 2 losses. Even that still might not be enough, if there are simply too many undefeateds or 1 loss conference champs in all the other conferences.

    At this point, I think ND wants 2 or 3 undefeated conference champs, say, LSU (13-0), Michigan State (13-0), and even Clemson (13-0), and then some type of chaos or unclear picture in, say, the Big-12, who also has no 13th game.

    If that’s the scenario, (or something close to it), and if ND takes care of their business and puts up a big-time statement win over Stanford, then they could squeak into the #4 playoff spot. (And it would set up a potential re-match with Clemson for the National Championship. I don’t know if the committee thinks about such things, but it’s fun to contemplate).

    Assuming we take care of business, look excellent against Stanford to close the season, and also get a little help, I say the Irish get into the playoff, with their only loss being on the road to top-tier Clemson in a monsoon early in the year.

    Final Four:
    #1 LSU
    #2 Michigan State
    #3 Clemson
    #4 Notre Dame

  14. ND has a shot. I don’t think any conference definitely gets a bid. SEC is probably 95% likely, Big 12 Baylor/TCU if they win the conference (not guaranteed), ACC needs an undefeated team or 1 loss Clemson champ (I don’t think a 1 loss FSU gets in ahead of us), B1G leaders seem to be on the verge of an upset almost every week. OH St. is going to lose, MI is already at 2 losses, and MI St is not a lock. P12 is down to just Utah and Stanford who even have a chance, and ND already controls its destiny against Stanford, so just need help on UT. If about half to three quarters of those teams lose over the next 7 weeks, ND is right there in the mix. Only need to move up about 1 spot/week.

  15. Win out and we have a good chance. Need to beat the Pac 12 champ so it has to be Stanford. The teams in front of us will knock each other out. UM can beat OSU.

  16. Given the weekend results and the improved second half schedule now that Temple, Pitt and Stanford are ranked, a scenario exists for the 4 teams to be OSU/MSU, Alabama/LSU, TCU/Clemson and ND. Of course, ND needs to win out in order to have any chance to be in the conversation and our former QB must help out his alma mater by beating Clemson. Sadly for their QB, Baylor may be starting a new QB like ND has had to do and that may be the edge TCU or Oklahoma needs to sneak into the playoff. USC helped out ND by beating Utah, as did Georgia Tech by beating FSU. As a result, not only did they likely put 2 schools in a position to take a playoff spot from ND behind ND but they also bolstered the quality of ND’s resume. Alabama seems to be the class of the teams that could make the playoffs. Same for OSU if it beats MSU and Michigan. Regardless, it’s a tall order for ND to make playoffs. But at least the team remains in the hunt.

  17. Notre Dame has a shot at the playoffs, but it’s a long shot.
    1. ND must win all of its remaining games. 10-2 won’t cut it.
    2. Two of the Power Five champions must be left out, and that’s the long shot. However, the PAC 12 will be eliminated (if ND wins out, thanks to Utah’s loss to USC), thus, one other conference champion must be left out.
    3. Though it is possible, at this point it remains inconceivable that the champions of the SEC, Big 10 and Big 12 are left out if they have only 1-loss, especially the latter because of last year’s snub. The ACC is ND’s likely last hope, but there it becomes even more complicated because of ND’s loss to Clemson.
    4. It all comes down to this: ND must measure up better against the ACC champion, hoping that the latter is left out. But the obvious complication is ND’s loss to Clemson. Some (Heather Dinich of ESPN) maintain that ND should hope for Clemson “to keep rolling”, i.e. undefeated, so that ND’s loss to Clemson looks like a “good loss”, but again, there would have to be quite a bit of shakeup in the other conferences to have their champions eliminated in favor of ND, so I’m not so sure that we should cheer for Clemson. FSU’s loss to Georgia Tech was a big help. Now, should we hope that FSU beats Clemson or vice versa? I’m thinking that we should want FSU to beat Clemson, and have FSU be the ACC Atlantic champion, hoping that ND looks better than FSU to the committee, but that all depends on how the remaining games shake out. FSU must also play Florida, so they could be 10-2 at the end. Of course, in a perfect world, Pittsburgh would win out (except for ND game) and beat FSU or Clemson in the ACC championship. That would give ND its best shot, but a long shot…

  18. We will need a follow up article now that Utah and Florida State lost. The window to the playoff is open a little bit more today for the Irish.

  19. ND is still in the mix! Two undefeated teams in the top ten lost this week (Utah & FSU) – beaten by teams that already lost to the IRISH. Up to #9 in both polls, we just have to be patient and keep winning. Both Temple and Pitt are now both in the top 20 – sure can’t hurt our SOS. The first real poll comes out Nov 3. GO IRISH!!

  20. Why are we talking about this!??!?! There is way to much that is going to happen before then!!! Why not do an recruiting update or how the recruits liked the SC game instead. Playoffs are a long shot anyways!! Let’s hold this conversation until after the Stanford game and see where we are.