In addition…
by BabaGhanouj (2023-05-17 19:36:49)

In reply to: Points on 'Liv, HH, Emma Underscore Why DeWolfe Is Here  posted by dillon77


there might be some other kinks in the "Split Season" theory:
1) What about Lindsay Schrader, Lindsay Allen, Jacqueline Batteast, Ruth Riley?
2) MPG posted that he saw Olivia briefly on May 15. She was without crutches and with no visible limp. (Dara still had crutches.) Granted, it was just a glance and he was not nearby. So, we are still guessing, but December sounds pessimistic at this point.
3) Hannah’s ESPN rank is 5, Jewel’s rank was 4, Skyler's rank was 3. Lindsay Allen, who definitely "hit the ground instantly running" was ranked 25.

It's a nice theory for consideration, however. We shall see.




Brianna Turner started her first game at ND vs UMASS-Lowell
by Cavanaugh82  (2023-05-18 16:31:39)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

and scored 29 pts on 13-18 shooting and had 9 rebounds in 19 minutes played. She started 138 of 139 games played (I think she didn't start on senior night) and lead the country in FG% as a freshman. I would call that hitting the ground running.


Impressive! *
by MountainMan  (2023-05-18 20:09:29)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Ha, ha, I thought about her, but couldn't remember.
by BabaGhanouj  (2023-05-18 17:23:13)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I have a list of phrases that repeatedly show up on McGraw's Bench. Number 1, I'm pretty sure is, "Bigs take longer to adjust to the college game."

Thanks for the exploding post.

And, yes, I looked her up when irncty posted Emma's numbers. Bri, senior year, had an eFG% of 63.2! (Of course, that was her FG% also.) I don't know if that was her best. Maybe freshman year.


65.2% as a freshman, ND record. Riley is 2nd at 60.0%.
by Cavanaugh82  (2023-05-18 19:00:45)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I agree that many frontcourt players take time to adjust to the college game. My totally unsupported opinion is that they often develop some bad habits by dominating high school games against lesser, smaller players and need to adjust to playing against peers day in and day out. The more recent phenomenon of AAU tournaments and international exposure at younger ages no doubtedly helps some develop faster by increasing the level of competition forcing them to up their game.


I’ll always believe that injuries kept Turner
by SorinBasement  (2023-05-18 20:12:07)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

from being on the short list of best players ever at ND. Even with them she was pretty darn good.


She belongs in the Ring of Honor, in my opinion.
by Cavanaugh82  (2023-05-19 06:53:14)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Career Records:
Rebounds: 1st with 1,048 (Riley 2nd)
Blocked Shots: 1st with 372 (Riley 2nd)
Points Scored: 6th with 2,017 (Riley 5th)
Field Goal Percentage: 2nd with 62.4% (Riley 1st at 63.2%)

Yes, it seemed like her first couple of seasons were limited by a bum shoulder and, of course, the ACL kept her out an entire season but her PER each season (according to basketballreference.com) was 33.5, 33.2, 31.6, and 33.3. Not only was she outstanding but she was amazingly consistent.


Explosive athlete. Who can forget those alley oops! *
by MountainMan  (2023-05-19 10:05:29)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Thanks, I didn't mean to imply that
by BabaGhanouj  (2023-05-18 19:17:52)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

we are wrong for saying that, just that it is repeated often …sometimes as if we have never heard it before. But it is also nice to keep in mind that there are exceptions. Nothing is written, except, maybe, death and taxes.


There tend to be exceptions to everything
by cbiebel  (2023-05-19 08:47:13)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

A general rule is that freshmen tend to tire out later in the season and hit what is referred to as "the Freshman Wall." Unfortunately for us, Breanna Stewart didn't seem to get the memo regarding that one.


Yes, I remember someone bringing up
by BabaGhanouj  (2023-05-19 09:04:15)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

the mythical "Freshman Wall" with Sonia Citron. She got better later in the season. That one may be more of a "wives' tale" than a "general rule". We need more data!


The "Freshman Wall" isn't just "later in the season"
by cbiebel  (2023-05-19 11:25:08)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

It's specifically meant to be around Tournament time, since High School seasons don't last nearly that long. However, things might have changed now with more AAU teams, etc. resulting in players being used to playing for long stretches of time.


Yes, I understand the concept. Like Breanna Stewart,
by BabaGhanouj  (2023-05-19 12:00:07)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Sonia Citron did better at tournament time. Up until the tournament games, she scored 11.8 ppg, 43.3 fg%, 15.37 Efficiency rating, and 48.3 efg%—all excellent! During the tournament games she scored 12.8 ppg, 56.1 fg%, 16.25 Efficiency rating, and 58.5 efg%. (When I say tournament games, I mean ACC and NCAA.)

I agree with you that because of the longer season and that the games are against tougher opponents, you would think that the "Freshman Wall" would be real. For those two, at least, it was not. As I say, we need more data.

Maybe you are on to something with all the summer playing time in high school. The fact that some freshmen do even better against late season, tournament-quality opponents, probably says more to the character of the player.


About Riley...
by cbiebel  (2023-05-18 03:37:08)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Luckily I had just dug some stuff out of my storage unit, including a box with some of my old media guides. I checked out the one that had her freshman year stats.

She didn't start until the 7th game of the season. In the first 6 games, her minute totals were:

Butler: 11 minutes, 6 points, 3 rebounds
Duke: 18 minutes, 7 points, 5 rebounds (Fouled out)
UC SB: 15 minutes, 6 points, 5 rebounds
UCLA: 10 minutes, 0 points, 3 rebounds
Rutgers: 5 minutes, 0 points, 1 rebound
UConn: 4 minutes , 2 points, 1 rebound

BTW, ND went 2-4 in those 6 games, with the two wins coming against Butler and UCLA, but that kind of start isn't surprising when you graduate 4 starters from the previous year's team.

And even when she did start, in her first two starts she played fewer minutes (just barely) than Julie Henderson.

Like a lot of bigs, she took a little while to really get her footing.

I think it's interesting you mention Riley, though, because her classmate Kelly Siemon actually did start in those first 6 games, although for some reason she didn't start in the first game that Riley started in (no, Riley didn't replace her in the lineup. Hutchinson did for some reason).


Interesting. *
by MountainMan  (2023-05-18 06:20:11)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Lindsay Allen started as a freshman at PG and was solid from
by MPG  (2023-05-17 22:55:00)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

the start. Jackie Batteast played major and effective minutes from the start. Lindsay Schrader needed time to adjust. Ruth Riley, like most bigs, had adjustments to make to the level of competition in college.


Thanks, and to cbiebel, I knew about Allen, but
by BabaGhanouj  (2023-05-18 06:58:12)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

was guessing about the others from articles and how many games they started in their freshman year (and records they set). It seems like btd's point that it is unusual not to have a 10 game adjustment period is valid, but not certain.


I tend to compare BBall posts to the linemen in Football
by cbiebel  (2023-05-18 12:59:59)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Many years ago (like back in the Holtz era) I noticed what would often happen on ND boards regarding attitudes of some of the fervent, but not necessarily knowledgeable, fans to Offensive Linemen who were coming in, usually with a lot of accolades:

1. When they arrive at ND: "Great! An AA Lineman! Can't wait to see how he does on the field."
2. After their freshman year, when he was most likely redshirted: "Hey, he was supposed to be great. Why didn't he play?"
3. After their sophomore year, when he'd most likely get garbage time, if he played at all. "He's not playing much. I thought he was supposed to be great."
4. After his junior year, when he was playing a bunch, possibly even starting: "Well, he's starting to show some stuff after not playing earlier in his career."
5. After his senior year and all through his 5th year: "He's definitely All American material!"

And the player would get into the NFL and play for a few years there.

Obviously this isn't what would happen with every OL recruit, but it happened often enough to seem to make a pattern.


Agreed. *
by MountainMan  (2023-05-18 08:19:30)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post