While maybe smart from a med school competition perspective
by Irish Tool (2018-08-16 13:49:09)

In reply to: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students  posted by johnthomas02


(although, query whether NYU was struggling to attract top flight med students), I don't see how this helps anything except doctors to retire earlier and more lavishly.

Mortgage companies are comfortable extending loans to med students at rates/amounts well outside the usual actuarial math. They are known to be very trustworthy in paying off their debts. They aren't the ones suffering from the student loan crisis.

Sure, maybe some kids are scared off from med school by the debt load, but that's pretty marginal.

We need more doctors, not richer ones. This money would be much better spent on undergrad debt or creating more med school slots.


I think this is out of touch
by dulac89  (2018-08-17 00:23:21)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

While being a doctor is certainly financially very good, there are many, many ways to make more money. I almost certainly make less money than most of my college roommates, who all went into business in some form or another and didn't accumulate hundreds of thousands in debt to get there.

Further, one of the biggest barriers to people going into primary care is the income/debt issue. A family practice doctor or pediatrician who makes $200,000 is doing very well. They are hardly living lavishly at that salary even without $200,000-$300,000 in debt before you've even bought your first house.

If you accept the premise that we need to spend less on healthcare, and the premise that physician salaries are part of the problem (which I don't accept, but seems to be a common argument), you have to address the outrageous cost of med school right off the bat.


This is pretty out of touch
by carroll2005  (2018-08-16 18:26:39)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Median debt for graduating med students is creeping north of the 200K mark.

The overwhelming majority of that is financed at standard federal interest rate levels ie 6-7%. Some grads have luck refinancing at a lowe rate down the line but this is becoming increasingly uncommon.

Couple that with basically having a 10 year lost period where you aren’t earning a regular salary, investing, or starting retirement savings, and the average 35 year old doctor is way behind the eight ball financially compared to their peers.

And to your last point - there are over 2 applicants for every seat in med school. There is no shortage of available pre-meds so redistributing this money to undergrads wouldn’t do a thing to impact the future number of doctors


I didn't mean to imply that money to undergrads
by Irish Tool  (2018-08-16 21:10:54)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

would help the shortage of doctors in any way. Just that it's a better use of money.

Is the $200k mark supposed to be scary? That number is lower than I would've guessed. The anecdote friends I mentioned are well north of that.


The economics seem complex
by JohnThomas02  (2018-08-16 14:41:08)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

An optimistic outlook is that it allows MDs to pursue careers without debt to influence their decision. Will more lives be saved because fewer grads will think they need to chase money? Maybe that's naive? I'm not a doctor nor familiar with the landscape.

Maybe there will just be widening income/opportunity inequality. From a poster on Hacker News:
"...the most successful universities using their funds to subsidize those who would be fine without it. I was actually made aware of this by a wealthy Stanford alumni which has a fairly broad program for undergraduate tuition assistance. Graduates of mid/low tier universities seem more and more likely to have to compete with better credentialed people with lower debt."

Overall, NYU certainly gains from this move. More competition for med school slots, and the entire university gets great PR. Maybe that encourages more donations near term, and richer doctors in 10-20 years more likely to donate more. All benefits NYU.

So, should we expect other schools to follow suit? They may feel they have to if the trend gains some momentum.

As you say, undergrads could be especially well served in this regard. Maybe there'd be less pressure to pick a major based on ROI. Maybe more What Would You Fight For and fewer Wall Street careers - no offense to all you hedgies.

ND seems well positioned financially and ethically (at least in historical identity) to conduct such an experiment.

Do we want all the rich schools giving out free educations and leaving the poorer schools to struggle more than they already are?

It will be interesting to see how the economics play out.


Physicians are certainly affected by student loans.
by CUBluejays  (2018-08-16 14:13:05)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

If you have $200,000+ in student loans it eliminates the option of primary care, because you don't make enough money to float that kinda debt along with a house, car and kids.

Physicians also enter the work force later and during residency you don't make enough money to pay down you student loan debt and have an apartment and car payment.

This isn't the 80's anymore. Heck, Medicare is about to slam office based practices with a payment change at is going to make life worse for primary care.


I do think it's appropriate for some types of work.
by Irish Tool  (2018-08-16 14:18:38)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Call me when a NYU doctor who doesn't choose a low-paying (rural/family/etc) practice struggles to put two Mercedes in the garage, get a second home, and retire by 60 if they want to. Until then, I'm skeptical.

I've had med school friends with 3x my debtload and 1/5 my family's income (ie in residency) get approved for as much mortgage as my wife and I got approved for.


Internal Medicine/FP/Peds
by CUBluejays  (2018-08-16 17:17:15)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

make up almost 33% of all physicians so there is a pretty good chance they will.