where both backs are a threat to carry the ball, whether that is from the backfield or whether one guy is in the slot and can run sweeps on occasion.

over an offense that virtually no one, college or pro, runs anymore.

do you ever ask yourself why what you desire is so far afield from the offenses that both colleges and pros run?

I lost the NFL years ago.

I thought I'd never lose interest in college ball but I am

yeah, I'd 62 years old so many it has passed me by but what they play these days looks less and less like football to me

I did enjoy Q in the playoffs (hanging out with family who are NFL fans)
using his strength to make plays. My family did not enjoy hearing me, "watch the left guard, he took out 2 guys that time."

discussion about this that I could lose you in about 15 seconds. I am of the opinion that you pretty much have no idea what you're talking about.

Would you still like to proceed?

and also probably you. guilty as charged. do you not agree that most here want to pound the football and employ an offense that is largely inconsistent with what is currently in vogue in football? more consistent with the holtz years?

i am not criticizing your ideas. i am however skeptical of anyone who thinks they know more than our or other coaches.

you would have realized that I was saying what you are trying to say. The initial post was about having a glorified OL in the backfield as a lead blocker and my response is that I would rather have more athletes on the field.

And I recall the Holtz years (for the most part) having two threats (at least) to run the ball in the backfield at all times, and not a sledge hammer. Even Edwards was a threat to run, though granted not as much as other fullbacks in the past.

At the end, you don't really want to have a discussion about football, you just want to be a homer and try and chastise people on here. You'll note that when someone asked me if that style can fit into what Kelly does on offense, I replied in the affirmative, mainly because it's stuff that he's already done in the past.

So take your homer bullshit somewhere else.

your additional points clarified it for me. thank you.

next time please feel free to ask for clarification if I am unclear (as I can be at times).

My desire to better understand is endless.

In this particular situation you can have multiple threats in running the ball from a variety of different formations and personnel groupings. It doesn't have to be power I/wishbone/T etc. type of stuff. I would also add that the vast majority of teams have these concepts in their playbook.

you described threatening the defense both on the edges and up the middle, regardless of personnel grouping (10, 11...). I know you've also mentioned previously jet sweep motions as an important piece to a shotgun-based offense, and from context I'm gathering that the threat of the jet sweep combined with the threat of the back running a dive/inside zone/trap is a method to accomplish the edge/middle threat.

Would it be fair to say that's phase 1, with misdirections like counters off the same look as phase 2? What other types of misdirection would be effective? And does this concept translate to the passing game? Is BK's passing attack also only focused on the edges of the field?

Like most people (i assume), I generally watch the ball during a game and focus on the outcome of a play, not the specifics of the play. I'm not usually paying attention to whether the ball was thrown outside the numbers, inside the numbers, inside the hashes, etc. Is the lack of a middle threat also a factor in the passing game in BK's offense?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

one such play would have the jet sweep motion with a fake to the sweep and then a counter back to where the motion started by either the qb or the running back.

Basically the answer to your question depends on how involved you want to make your qb in the running game. I think that it is imperative to have a second running threat from either the backfield or the slot (and if you have three it is even better). Forcing the defense to defend the entire field in the running game is very effective; defend the jet sweep, defend the inside running game, and then defend the counters/traps off of that action.

The Rams do an excellent job of this, especially with their jet sweep look. In the NFL you absolutely have to freeze those linebackers for a second to free up lanes inside and to open up the play action game.

specific player comes into the game or lines up in a specific spot -- which historically Kelly does a lot of in the form of a RB/WR he puts in specifically to fake a sweep every time -- or rarely actually run it (not enough to bother actually worrying about the one time they run it) or a TE that is absolutely never, ever, ever going to be thrown the ball.

The broader question is WTF actually is going through Kelly's head? Seriously -- how can he possibly not see that he has to make these simple and fundamental changes to the offense?

It took him 2.5 years to finally admit defense matters and BVG was a disaster -- or Jack stepped in and fired him. How the F after 9 failed seasons and 100% complete and total failure offensively in every single game against an elite team can't Kelly or freaking Jack if need be not see that the offense has to change?

If the opposing defense never sees it there is an incentive to have a package for the offense that uses it.

And of course, one of this year’s Super Bowl opponents does just that. But let’s just stick with the great scheme swami Brian has developed over the last decade. I

ocdomer78 has no idea what he's talking about.

Has run based offenses? Who knew?

that he's saying that nobody in college runs offenses that can threaten the field both up the middle and on the edges.

It's because he's so programmed to be a homer that he doesn't realize that many/most/almost all college offenses attempt to do so and that you can do so from 10, 11, 12, 20, or 21 personnel groupings. He's in the bag just like the homers over on the homer board that think that in order to have two guys in the personnel grouping as a threat to run the ball you have to mean 2 backs and 1 TE.

Dope.

That incorporates jet sweep threats that have revived principles from older offenses. It's not a base offense but it's definitely still a part of some offenses. And I recall Ohio State bringing the slot receiver into the backfield pre-snap. ND also did some of this at times.

As to two back sets generally, going from 2017, the 13-3 runner-up Patriots ran about 35-40 percent of their offense in two-back sets. (Edit: I think that figure is right but that in 2018 it dropped to closer to a quarter of plays, while they were second behind the 49ers.) Of course so did the 6-10 49ers. The teams with the next most plays out of two-back sets appeared to be the 9-7 Wild Card Bills, 10-6 Wild Card Falcons, 5-11 Bears, and 11-5 Saints.

I originally typed this in response to jt, but it looked like jt deleted the response about how Holtz used Rocket. Nevertheless, just like Holtz would motion Rocket to the backfield, Meyer used Harvin similarly. And so did the Seahawks, including motioning him into the backfield pre-snap. Ohio State under Meyer has used pre-snap motion of WRs both to settle in the backfield and to hit jet sweeps.

Our 2015 offense also effectively used jet sweep, in part to make up for deficiencies in third and short running. Stanford in particular was a game where we set up runs up the middle against jet sweep motion earlier in the game. Then on third or fourth and short on our final drive in Stanford territory, we hit the jet sweep to cut it off the tackle for a first down. That stands out because I figured it would be the play call since it had been set up before without being run.

And to follow up on jt's point elsewhere, the jet sweep concept isn't all that different from what you'd see the academies do or when we'd see Bob Davie motion an end around to soften up the middle of the defense and run it up the gut to a tailback. I recall him running the same play for big gains like 3 or 4 times in 2001 against Michigan State I think.

But today, modern offenses use the same principles of establishing secondary running threats. Including, as jt noted from the beginning, from the slot.

is often referred to as "ghost" motion and has been used since at least the early 2000's by Andy Reid.

Don't get me wrong,I'd love to see some semblance of Counter Trey ala 1990's Nebraska.

I guess I can dream; but don't see why running this and playing in a spread would be mutually exclusive.

It's a numbers game. They have too many in the box. We have no choice but to adapt and take what they give us rather than waste a man as a 2nd RB. The best approach is to spread it out and isolate their DB's (man coverage) for 20+ yard sideline back shoulder passes or fades in the red zone. We finally have a QB who gets Kelly's offense, can make the right reads, and hit those throws.

I forget what game it was, but then it disappeared as quickly as it arrived.

The show is always about BK.

Those that stay will use a fullback and lose out on the B1G title game via tie breaker.

Sign out front should have told you