I think that's a little unfair.
by tdiddy07 (2023-06-09 13:23:58)

In reply to: Because Kevin White didn't get the place *  posted by KeoughCharles05


I think there is a legitimate criticism is that he didn't understand the importance of ND football in the priorities of the university and may not have believed in the ability of ND football to play at a championship level. But I know plenty of alumni like Jack who also constantly discounted the pull of ND to make excuses for whatever failing coach was there.

His big missteps were in what I believe is the following order of importance (i) the 7-4-1 scheduling model, (ii) extending Davie, (iii) standing by Willingham after the 2004 season, (iv) failing to deliver Urban and (v) Weis's contract extension.

To counter ii-iv, he identified Gruden and had him at the finish line before administrative meddling botched that. That was a swing for the fences. And after he missed on Urban, I believe he paid Shanahan a visit. I don't know that he wasn't willing to go big in the way that Jack has never seemed to try. iv was obviously an immature panic move, but I do still kind of understand it. He was the hottest name in the country. There was legitimately going to be NFL buzz constantly surrounding him, and that could've hurt recruiting. (On the other hand, it could've helped recruiting.) And he may not have been close enough to trust Weis when he said he didn't want to bolt to the NFL without a meaningful agreement.

The biggest problem is the 7-4-1 model that both undervalued what ND was capable of doing against real reschedules and it alienated relationships with other teams from power conferences at a time when we needed to be preserving those relationships. It is the biggest reason why we felt vulnerable after the Big East shakeup. Now, however, I do question how much of that was him and how much was the pressure he felt to appease a BOT that I would argue no longer gets the place, or at least doesn't get the values that drew so many like me to once have the kind of devotion to the place that I frankly miss.

But in a bigger picture, he wasn't publicly a poor representative of the school. And he did show a commitment to making great hires in some sports. He hired a few good coaches who by all accounts were also good representatives of the school (Jackson, Brey, Clark). Clark was convinced to leave a top notch athletic department and was a big win. He identified a highly successful college coach and got him. Clark won a title. Jackson was pulled from his first NHL gig. Maybe the lockout had something to do with it. But he identified an elite college coach and got him. Brey was pretty much the profile of someone we were capable of getting at the time, and he elevated the program from the prior decade. White also raised funds extremely well to support many programs and lift them to a championship level during an arms race.

In hindsight, he was probably better than I gave him credit for when he left in 2008. I think he was hamstrung by his orders from above. That said, it's a fair argument that maybe we needed someone who got the importance of ND football to push back on certain initiatives at that time. However, an even worse result is when you hire an alumnus who doesn't push back on that BOT influence and who constantly makes excuses for performance. Thus, Swarbrick's tenures makes White's look a look better.


I think you're missing at least 2
by tf86  (2023-06-12 08:40:21)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

(vi) His dalliance with the ACC which nearly put us in that conference as a football member; and (vii) his renegotiation of the original BCS deal.

Granted, (vi) did not achieve its intended results, so some may be tempted to place it in the "no harm, no foul" file. But I don't think White should get any credit for the NCAA bailing him out of his own stupidity. Moreover, it showed that he did not value independence, nor did he have any clue as to what helped make ND different. Further, he was willing to give up a cornerstone of the football program (very prematurely, at a minimum, as it turned out) to put us in a conference with which we had little history in common, and little if any institutional connection other than the fact that there are a number of good academic schools in the conference (which, by and large, do their student-athletes a disservice on the academic side of things.)

As for (vii), I'll willingly plead guilty to not knowing all of the facts, so it may very well be that White negotiated the best deal for ND that he could get. With that said, the perception that deal created was that: (a) White had an implicit, if not explicit, willingness to make ND a junior partner to the power conferences; and (b) given the provision that ND would get $1 million in years that it didn't qualify for the BCS, that he valued monetizing the brand over using the brand to produce excellence.

I've mentioned on here before that I'm pretty tight with a guy who played football at Tennessee back in the day. White's son is now their AD. When he was first hired, my exact words to my friend were, "I hope for your sake that he's a better AD for your school than his father was for my school."

White may have been a competent AD for about 85% of all Division 1 institutions. At Notre Dame, however, he was an unmitigated train wreck. Say what you will about Jack, at least he has kept ND football at least nominally independent. I doubt White would have been able to do the same, had he remained in office over this time period, or even that he would have been interested in doing so. On the other hand, if you want to argue that Jack has doubled down on some of White's other annoying tendencies, such as prioritizing monetizing the brand over utilizing it to promote excellence, you'll get no argument from me.


I thought about adding vii as well.
by tdiddy07  (2023-06-12 15:16:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

It seemed to be part of a trend of lacking confidence in the program so hedging bets to take guaranteed money.

Vi I would need more information on. I don't ever remember that as being a serious threat.


I would also vigorously dispute a position that it is an accomplishment that Jack "nominally" kept us independent by ceding five games and scheduling authority. I think that deal is a net drag on the program and puts us into a terrible rights agreement. That is not an accomplishment.


I'm not a fan of the ACC scheduling agreement
by tf86  (2023-06-13 08:32:09)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Five games was unreasonable. Four games would have been more than enough and I think we should have pushed for three. We probably had to cede some room on our schedule to get the placement for basketball and olympic sports. Then again, I would have been okay with the reconstituted Big East for that purpose.

As for Point vi, that came up after the ACC had admitted Virginia Tech and Miami and before BC joined. I heard someone refer to it as a "done deal." Reading between the lines, I think ND had a deal in principle with the ACC to join that conference. The deal provided for delayed entry for football (I had heard as long as ten years) and was contingent on the ACC being able to play a conference championship game in the interim. The ACC did in fact apply to the NCAA for permission to play a conference championship game with 11 members, and was turned down (note: this was in 2004, I think the answer probably would have been different ten years later.) I think that development invalidated the deal, and the two sides couldn't reach subsequent agreement as to the timing of ND's entry. Only after that did the ACC turn to BC.