It reminds me of an old ABC-TV show "Time Tunnel". In the show
you went into a time portal and were transported back/forth
through time. As for all these transfers it should be the ideal
that players on a team compete for starting/playing time and
try harder if they are on the bench rather than back their bags.
It is official—Jordan is leaving
Link, below
"(Jordan) Nixon’s departure leaves the Irish with just nine scholarship players, though with six guards still among them.
"Those guards include incoming freshman Anaya Peoples, who besides being the overall No. 18-rated prospect in her class by ESPN is also ranked No. 4 among point guards.
"ND also has brought aboard a pair of graduate transfers at guard in Destinee Walker and Marta Snizek, both renowned for defense.
Returning guards include sophomores-to-be Abby Prohaska and Katlyn Gilbert, who is coming off shoulder surgery, and senior, Kaitlin Cole, a former walk-on who is coming off knee surgery and entering her senior season.
"Listed as frontcourt players for the Irish are just junior center Mikayla Vaughn, sophomore Danielle Cosgrove and freshman Samantha Brunelle, who arrives as the overall No. 6-rated prospect in her class by ESPN.
"Brunelle and Cosgrove, though listed as forwards, are generally considered wings, with outside shots being part of their arsenals."
A few points to add:
- Sniezek is a point guard and was more of a pass-first one on offense while at Stanford.
- One would guess Anaya Peoples or Katlyn Gilbert, who has also manned the point for her HS and AAU teams, would back up/work with Sniezek at the point. When talking with Anderson about Peoples after she signed, MM stressed she would be playing other guard positions (she's awfully good inside), but changing situations dictate different approaches, no?
- Currently, the scholarship situation for 2020-21 would add another post/forward (Nat Marshall) and another guard wing (Alli Campbell), minus PG Sniezek, for a current total of 10. Hopefully, that 10 will stay static and be augmented by others prospects.
- Coming back to 2019-20, hope Nicole Benz is not planning on being a manager.
How many years will she have left?
grad transfers is writing on the wall for certain players that their playing time will be limited. I hope I’m wrong, but are these girls afraid of competition . That’s all I can equate it to, they see grad transfers and elite players coming in and decide to bolt - smh
I see this as a different situation from Patterson.
I think Nixon may view this as a situation where she could get caught up in the numbers game at ND. With two point guards coming in this year and the staff's pursuit of a top-notch PG for this year's class, it could be that Jordan saw the writing on the wall and is choosing to look for a better spot for playing time.
This is what happens when you recruit elite talent and some players will leave. Some players will leave because they realize they don't want to play in a highly competitive environment. I think this is the difference between Patterson and Jordan.
I think Patterson didn't like the pressure that comes with playing for a National Championship contender and demanding coaching that comes along with it. I think Nixon realizes the numbers at her position are increasing and the reality is her playing time will diminish. Doesn't mean she is afraid of the competition, but rather feels it's best to step out and look for another opportunity at a school that has a less crowded roster at PG.
Plus, being from NYC is a lot different being at ND especially when your close friend and former high school teammate also leaves.
Agree with PittsburghIrish. Nixon never looked comfortable in her brief appearances last season and didn’t show much improvement. Then Muffett goes out and gets Sniezek to play the point this season with Peoples the likely backup. Up next could be Clark and/or Kelly from the 2020 class, and then (please, Lord, make it so) Azzi Fudd in 2021. I think Nixon realized the competition is tough and gonna get tougher.
Isn't she a PG? Slotted to play the 2 but maybe now back to the 1?
...I remember an Anthony Anderson article in which she said that.
Still, that was before Marta Sniezek was brought in. And it's interesting that we've learned about Nixon entering the portal just after the report that another major 2020 target is visiting this week. If it's a PG (Clark, Kelly), Jordan might've felt sandwiched or, perhaps, bait and switched.
Now that Nixon looks like she's headed out -- and maybe her stint on the National Team is an audition tape for schools to land -- maybe Peoples or Katlyn Gilbert will back up Sniezek for a year.
And many of us thought Clark's desire to "play immediately" might be an issue. Heck, right now it looks like a selling point.
If we had been recruiting the 15 limit and these transfers were happening, you could make an argument that 15 was too big a number and maybe the reason for the transfers.
But this is happening with less than Muffet's ideal 11, so it seems time to up that number and just expect injury/transfer to reduce that number by 2 a year.
Might be a good idea to recruit a few more.
A walk-on given a scholarship. So 8 "recruited" players
The coaching staff is great but the question has to be asked what the heck is driving off so many players?
Recruiting is still ok but arguably not what it should be for a team with as many recent Final Fours as this one.
Feels like there is something going on that we don't know about.
At least we are up to our ears in point guards. So we have that going for us.
...to examine why ND has recently lost four recent prime recruits (five if you want to go back to Taya Reimer, but she did graduate).
There are some excellent opinions and remedies brought up here, but with the transfer portal being entered more and more, questions are raised in my head with every answer or opinion I read.
As Orangutan points out, we're doing well enough as evidenced by our getting to/the brink of the final four most years. Still, one would've expected a bump from the National Championship. Is there something lurking that is getting in the way? Something definite? A number of things? Or a disconnect?
I think it's worth asking these questions and trying to find some answers because, as Muffet points out, these transfers have effects on programs.
(And, btw, I think this is happening throughout WBB: UConn and Oregon are certainly not immune to it, to look at two other NCAA Final Four Teams.)
RECRUITING
- Are we going after the right players/people?
- What are the expectations they have coming into college regarding the university (academics/social life/demands/what one can get out of it)?
- In a similar mode, what are the expectations as players. Playing time is the most obvious. What about competition within the team? Expectations?
- How will they be coached? Do people have a full picture of MM's approach to coaching? Is there a disconnect between the expectations and the reality?
RETENTION
(to pull a phrase from my corporate background)
- Having had two recent students at the University, ND puts a lot of effort into making sure the frosh don't get lost, utilizing the frosh college, as well as the residence halls staffs.
- Athletes are under even more time demands. When coupled with the expectations (self- and otherwise), is everything in sync? Who takes care of that on the hoops team? Is it formal? Semi-? Both?
- Can expectations be re-calibrated? Assuaged? Can one keep a player from going from frustrated to turned around, rather than the transfer portal?
SOME AREAS TO ADDRESS:
- Playing time. I remember a Kayo post that pointed towards this above all. Muffet and Geno A. are both using increasingly short benches with top recruits sitting and watching.
Are the expectations (for the coaches) that high that they don't feel they can play newbies? Or is their level of expectations so high that they won't put players in until they are at a certain level of play?
Is that level, perhaps, too high (for retention and/or developmental purposes)?
- COACHING STYLE.
-- Dani Patterson said she wanted to go somewhere that would help her get into the pro's, yet she left a campus that had five WNBA draftees and coaches who helped facilitate that? So is it the style in which they're coached?
-- Tenor. MM is known for being, ahem, very straight-forward -- even sarcastic on occasion -- with her players. While she's toned it down over the years, there is a new breed of athlete coming through. Obviously, some can take it (Mabrey), but for those that can't, should one back off (Bill Parcells rule: know your players)? Or find a mix of players that include some who can take the proverbial heat?
- OTHER ISSUES
-- Linked issues: expectations of players/coaches not being in sync.
Seems we now have two instances where MM chose to bring in a grad point guard from Stanford with the result being that a prominent ND undergrad transferred. Lili Thompson in, Ali Patberg gone. Marta Sniezek in, Jordan Nixon gone. And Nixon also had the specter of another 2020 point guard (Clark or Kelly) coming in the next year. Were the reasons why explained? Did they feel bait and switched?
- Transfer Portal: It's getting easier for athletes to join the portal. On one hand, you can get players, but it still might not make up for losing a player after all the work one has done to recruit a player.
- Squad Size. Many posters suggest having a somewhat larger roster to make up for transfer losses. I get that, but if one of the issue gets down to short benches and limited time, does that hinder recruiting?
- Squad Make-up: Or do you address that with the kind of people you go after to fill out squads? Look for kids who are have D1 talent but are not necessarily 5-star products but can give solid minutes when called upon. And will match up well with ND? A Hannah Huffman? A Brittany Mallory, who fit into the starting lineup?
Sorry for the lengthy discourse, but we're starting to see this at a lot of schools and there are probably underlying commonalities that could/should be addressed.
While I agree with much of what you said I think we need to pump the brakes. You've answered most of your own questions in your post however I don't think Coach is sarcastic with her players. Demanding, high expectations on and off floor and honest in excess, absolutely.
She, like many coaches, hate excuses, won't tolerate lack of effort especially at practice. She admits that she can be difficult to play for and has said numerous times that her level of expectations for her point guard are through the roof. Some wilt but many thrive on this.
Look at the other side of her. She, and her staff, will do anything for their players that give their all to them, their teammates and the university.
Playing time is earned. Minutes are not handed out like candy. In today's world to many kids want instant gratification. That's not how the real world works but there are many coaches out there who have sold their soul to be that new hip "player's coach". Most of them come and go.
Coach has softened her approach over the years. The staff and former players will tell you that but she will never sell out her values and what she thinks her players should be. She has said that Notre Dame isn't for everyone and that if a player has to think to long about coming, it may not be for them.
In a recent article she gave us many of the answers you are looking for. Parents won't let their kids fail. To many of them blame the coaches at the first sign of difficulties. Transfer is the big answer instead of telling them they made a commitment and it's going to be difficult. Your coach isn't going to be your best friend most of the time.
I would never want another person leading this program or these young ladies. Trust the process.
...and trying to come up with some answers, not accusations.
As I think most would know, I'm (more than) generally supportive of Muffet's program. How can you not be?
I think one should pump the brakes as well, in part because this issue seems to be gaining speed with top programs. The analysis I recommend is more for "how do we deal with this process/business model" that is being "disrupted" to use a current terminology.
I'll fall back on my profession: can never over-communicate, so that's a good place to start. Communicating is both listening and talking, so that's a two-way start. Heck, you hate to see all this time and effort put into getting a person to enter the program, then leave.
Stay tuned...thanks again for feedback.
where folks can express somewhat differing views /challenge a certain position and civility reigns. Kudos to all of you!
We are not alone. I think this is a Women's college basketball problem (maybe Men's too).
I think it is way too easy to simply transfer if the littlest thing doesn't go your way. I think a lot of these players are coddled and haven't yet learned the life lessons of sticking things out and working harder.
This should be especially true in Women's college basketball where education should be the highest priority because it is less likely that you will make a career out of basketball
Fallout from the AAU/Lebron/NBA mentality seen now in basketball at different levels. Players, and their sometimes overbearing parents and "advisors", focus on what is in their own self interest. They want immediate playing time and a clear runway. I do not totally blame them for not wanting to be recruited over. But now it seems like any possible (and maybe even imaginery) roadblock and they are off to another place. Roster management has become nightmarish.
My sense is the change started to pick up in the women's game with Diamond Deshields and her dream team at UNC. Maybe one of the five or so who signed there finished there. Lots more movement recently especially among the top teams. UConn, Oregon, Louisville, Maryland, and South Carolina have also been revolving doors.
Muffet is in a tough spot. What do you do? Have a roster of seven players? You need depth in case of injuries. As soon as you bring in one good player, one leaves. FWIW, I don't think Ali Patberg or Jordan Nixon made the best long term move for their development, but we live in a democracy and top players have plenty of choices -- and increasingly are taking advantage of them.
I think the NCAA needs to rethink the transfer portal as well. IMO, too much back channel communcations going on and no way to stop it. Also, there needs to be a limited time period when a player can enter their names. What happens next? They wait until the first game and if they are not in the starting lineup, they are out the door and you play them a month later?
We won a national championship because Jessica received a waiver to play immediately; so it's somewhat hypocritical to criticize the process. I wonder how many players enter the transfer portal expecting that they'll be able to play the next year.
You can hate the transfer/waiver process but realize that you have to play this game to compete.
Yes, I realize we benefited greatly with Jessica, but I still hate what is happening to the game.
FWIW since her announcement of transferring, I expected Prince to wind up at ND and try for a waiver. My sense is the transfers use backchannel avenues to gauge potential landing spots, so, they have at least one pretty good option before they enter the portal. They may visit a few spots before an ulitimate decision, but they have a pretty good idea where they are going beforehand.
The NCAA is inept and wants to avoid potential lawsuits. A cottage industry is now emerging of third parties who know the rules, the quirks of the systems, and help position players, so they get an immediate transfer.
A mess. I am not sure how one can recruit ethically nowadays.
Ironically, I think ND may have helped to tighten the bond between Walker and Westbrook when they visited here, which ultimately led her to UConn, with her amiga.
Dani and now potentially Jordan. This cannot help recruiting in NYC.
Katryna Gaither? And does anyone know why Katryna has not been added to the Ring of Honor?
We can still hope that Cosgrove and Marshall will prove to be good additions. ND certainly will not be recruiting TMLA in the forseeable future!
..was from Suffolk County in eastern Long Island, out by Danielle Cosgrove.
Can't think of any city natives outside of Ms. Gaither. Remember the contest we ran a year or two ago on who should be next in the Ring of Honor? She won handily.
BTW, TMLA was not anywhere close to top of the standings in the Catholic league this year...Christ the King, with Ms. Marshall, was one major reason why.
If ND wants to try another part of the metropolitan New York area, I suggest:
- First going slightly north to Westchester County to watch Sonia Citron (a lot) at the Ursuline School;
- Then, cross the Hudson River into New Jersey and drive west to watch Point Guard Olivia Miles from Phillipsburg; and,
- Lastly, head to the Jersey Shore to see the sublime 6'3" Destiny Adams in Manchester Township. The Shore gave ND the Mabreys and that turned out just fine...*
* I've refrained from bringing up the name of the youngest of those daughters, although I'm mashing my mental teeth as I type.
during her ND career. I guess I expected more from a player of her height. Long Island girls basketball has been unimpressive to me with only LI Lutheran in Nassau County having teams that receive national recognition.
Christ the King is the long-time power in the Brooklyn-Queens CHSAA with grads such as Sue Bird and Tina Charles; Nat Marshall would be ND's first recruit from that school. I was surprised when TMLA made its runs to the top of the league with Patterson, Nixon, and few others. I always viewed it as the rich girls school in Queens, although I was friends with one of their basketball playing graduates years ago.
New Jersey has been much better than New York in producing major contributors for ND's team. Of course, I am still hoping that we can build a Texas connection, too!
...which I guess you would say were the lead players of the teams on which they played.
Fair enough, but she wasn't chopped liver:
A 2008 graduate of Notre Dame, D'Amico was a four-year letterwinner who started in 58 of 119 games for the Fighting Irish. She received Big East Player of the Week honors in both 2006 and 2007. In her four-year career, Notre Dame was ranked as high as fourth in the nation, made an NCAA Sweet 16 appearance, and was 90-39 overall.
And she played in Europe quite a few years before beginning a upwardly mobile coaching career that finds her at Wake Forest in our ACC, after a solid stint at Yale.
So, while she's certainly not a Gaither or a Mabrey, I think it was a pretty good stint while there and even a bit better as an ND alum.
However, Long Island isn't known for solid high school programs for women. In part, that's because parochial schools that play at a high level go no further east than LI Lutheran. And it's hard to keep a public school at top level, year in and year out, unless you have a great coach and/or a family (Mabreys) that feed it for a decade or so.
Plus, Long Island girls have other sports that draw their interest (lacrosse, soccer, field hockey, etc.).
Like you and I said, head over the Hudson and check out Jersey (again). And I think Sonia Citron is worth a trip to White Plains!