Notre Dame won an NCAA championship without a point guard (or one who played only 14 games), then almost won it again. Last year we found a true point guard and disaster struck. Of course we didn’t win because we had no point guard nor lost because we had one, but how important, really, is the almighty point guard? ND pretty much exposed the myth of the traditional point.
In the last 25 years, AP’s Women’s College Player of the Year included 7 centers (incl. Ruth Riley), 11 forwards, but only 5 point guards, including recently Sabrina Ionescu and Kelsey Plum. There are a bunch of articles pointing out the same for the NBA and WNBA—that point guards are overrated. Only point guards Cynthia Cooper in 1997 and 1998, and Diana Taurasi in 2009, have ever won WNBA MVP's.
Does this indicate that, in order to win championships, teams need great centers, forwards, or shooting guards more than point guards? Are we overrating point guards?
On the other hand, if we look at Efficiency Rating [(Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks - missed FG - missed FT - Turnovers) / Games Played], last year Sabrina led all college players with 32.4 adjusted for 40 minutes. Stella Johnson, a point guard from Rider University, was third, after Rhyne Howard. William & Mary’s Eva Hodgson and Creighton’s Jaylyn Agnew were also in the top ten in Eff (Efficiency Rating). Add Breanna Wright, Valerie Higgins and Kelly Campbell, all in the top 15 in Eff, who were also point guards, and we begin to doubt these articles disparaging point guards.
Indeed, one of the criticisms of Eff is that it heavily weighs points and rebounds, not the intangibles like desire, defense, distribution, and direction of good point guards. Yet so many of the top players in Eff this year were point guards. Is this an anomaly, or are point guards, in fact, underrated?
Of course these are all scoring point guards. Is that the key to an impactful point guard? The so-called point guard must be a scoring, rebounding, assisting machine.
Now that Notre Dame has two coaches who played the point, we would expect significant emphasis on that position. We already have two coming in. Are either Alasia Hayes or Olivia Miles scoring point guards?
One more complication for your consideration—It has been argued on the Bench that Niele Ivey’s flirtation with the NBA was more or less a joke. Niele, as expected, says what she learned is translatable. How believable is that? You decide, but one thing she had to learn was that the NBA is embracing positionless basketball. Tall, long armed, and often huge men are running around and jumping like gazelles. Is this a translatable idea from the NBA? Will Niele pursue positionless basketball and go after those types of recruits?
The point guard position — overrated, underrated, important, but not as important as shooters and rebounders? And how do you think the new coaching staff will regard point guards? Will they, should they change the traditional point of women’s basketball?
Even being pointless may be the point.
You need primary ball handler(s) and an organized offense. But your pg often matches up against another guard that creates their shots or breaks down the defense. If that player is sacrificed for a bigger/slower player then you may have to play zone and lose on the boards. So a true pg is not necessary but would still be preferable.
The 2018-19 team was ridiculously talented. But I’d have to think that they would have benefited from a natural pg to give them a better balance.
They keep learning all of the time. Niele is young with a greater capacity to learn. Not all of what she learned will be transferable, but some things will be, e.g. about coaching and not necessarily just about schemes or tactics, etc. I actually like that she does not confine herself to “how you do it" in women’s college BB and that she has an open mind. She’s just starting as a head coach so she has a steep learning curve.
Championship. I recall the 2019 tournament game between Oregon and Baylor. Baylor won by 5, but it was tied at 67 with 55 seconds to go. Baylor clearly had the inside size advantage with Cox and Brown. but Oregon had three very dangerous three-point shooters. And Hebard had nine boards. And Ionescu ...
How dangerous would a team be with a Hebard and four 40% three-point shooters?
I assuming that this hypothetical team would take care of the ball, stay close in rebounding, make their free throws at a respectable rate, etc.
In 2021-22 how good is our three-point shooting going to be?
- Sam Brunelle will be a junior.
- Alli Campbell will be a sophomore.
- Sonia Citron and Olivia Miles will be on board.
Three pointers and Maddy Westbeld and Alasia Hayes are not the first things that come to mind, but Maddy has range.
In a similar vein, I'll be interested to see how Abby Prohaska's long-range shooting is upon her return. Katlyn Gilbert and Anaya Peoples relied on mid-range and drives a lot in 2019-20. Let's see if that range is expanded.
Lastly, there still might be another 2021 coming aboard who has accuracy and range at all distances (that would Fudd. Azzi Fudd.)
Her first year, she was a rather one-dimensional defense and hustle (okay, two-dimensional) player. She could be a big-time contributor if she doubled the number of flat-footed jump shots she takes, assuming she makes a reasonable percentage. She doesn't have to drive, rebound or pass for assists much.
if it comes to pass. I'm completely bias but think Sam will really light 'em up this year. If they stick racks of balls at the 3-pt line, we know she would be the best.
I'm also hoping that Katlyn Gilbert will break out this year. I think she is just too good to be an average shooter. I understand she will have added responsibly with ball handling.
Ali and Maddy will be interesting to watch. I'm not sure how good Miles or Hayes will be beyond the 3-pt line.
..she didn't (have to) shoot a lot of threes in Chile (Citron and Verhulst did!) The two times I've seen her in person she made sure to take a few threes, more to keep defenses honest than probably anything else. But she's got the range.
Simply don't have enough tape/views of Hayes to even make a good guess!!
That's why it's stay tuned time....
Good thread, thanks.
my additional notes:
I believe that there is a need for a lead guard, embracing Kayo's concepts of a "primary ball handler" and "offensive organizer". That player is usually the one who also makes certain that everyone knows the defensive alignment.
Alasia Hayes was primarily a scorer in high school and will need to learn to lead an offense. Katlyn Gilbert will probably start as the lead guard for the 2020-21 season.
Olivia Miles is a tall, lead guard who can score when needed. With the U-16 team, she was surrounded by scorers, so she facilitated the offense and averaged more assists than points. I expect that Niele will surround her with scorers.
I think that the "positionless" concept refers to the versatile players who now fill the traditional 2, 3, and 4 spots on the floor.
ND would look good with Olivia Miles, a powerful low post player, two Jackie Youngs, and a versatile three point shooter.
but not without further discussion. (The hallmark of nice notes)
I, too, really liked Kayo's concepts, but I think he chose his words carefully. What he said was "It only matters that the offense is organized and the team takes care of the ball. Generally that's the responsibility of the point guard." Then he went on to say basically, as I interpreted his post, those duties are needed, but not necessary by the traditional point guard. In other words the team does not need a "primary ball handler", but must take care of the ball.
Niele has seen (as has others) a 6'11" Bucks player bring up the ball on offense and go back to guard a post player on defense.
I agree with your addition that someone has to ensure everyone knows the defensive alignment. I also agree with your next two notes.
I agree that typically "positionless" has referred to the 2, 3, and 4. I was more interested in the NBA style "positionless" offense that included all positions. I think you are right in implying that women's college basketball is not ready for that. Personally I would not like to see it. Like lenny97, I'm no fan of the NBA. But could we be heading to a bunch of 6'1", 6'2", and 6'3" players who "take care of the ball" and seek their own shot? Muffet has said Maddy is that type of player, and Sam, while not the quickest, can handle the ball. Ali is close, as is Sonia. North Carolina and UConn seem to be stockpiling that type of player.
I agree with you and others that Olivia Miles can do it all. Whether or not a traditional point guard is needed, we have one coming.
will move over to take over for Gilbert or Peoples??
SEG/Chief
IMHO. Just don’t think she will be better than either Gilbert or People’s. Or Prohaska. Or Campbell. Or Citron. Again my opinion only.
..individually and within the team concept.
As MPG and others have pointed out, she was an undersized combo guard in high school who will be on a learning curve in regards to the PG position.
Still, Niele -- if memory is right -- was the coach who went after Alasia initially, so she must like her fit in ND's system. We'll see if that's as a combo or point guard.
Remember, the Irish have a boatload of off guards: Anaya, Abby, Alli, Sonia Citron (coming in).
Kind of a Missouri moment (for one and all): show me.
will be the PG. I just hate to see talent wasted or another transfer.
Especially in the long run. I agree with you about Neile and recruiting.
She had to see something. Maybe like players before her a specialist
somewhere. Thanks.
SEG/Chief
on the floor at the same time. Especially two who were both versatile scoring, played D and rebounded, and could play point like Jackie did for us. I'd love to have two of those especially how humble JY was, but not sure we are going to see another, let alone 2. She was special.
Both in quality and quantity. We traditionally have done very well recruiting smart and talented guards.
I do. Didn't think my post looked all that strong, but definitely we need to find some bigs.
- 6'5" with wingspan.
- Very athletic; quick on her feet
- Blocks shots well
- Light right now, but weight training will undoubtedly help.
- Very smart, engaging person who will embrace all of ND.
She was the lynchpin to the 2018-19 Christ the King team that won the NYState Title. Many other scoring guards/wings around her, but when they were injured at various times during the year, she stepped up her scoring to fill the void.
- With gyms shut, she's probably behind in rehab from ACL that wiped out her 19-20 season (bad year for a lot of folks, right?).
- And, yes, she probably needs to develop what her game is once she's back. Might take a bit, but the physical tools and skill set are there.
Niele spent a lot of time in Queens recruiting her, so she's convinced.
- Niele needs to get complementary bigs around/with her (see Timea Gardiner, Ayanna Patterson). Heck, let's go after 6'7" Betts and have a Baylor-like front line for, like, the first time ever!
1 more true post makes this a team that is 2 teams in one. You could have
complete 5 rotation keeping the whole team fresh. The mix and matching
against opponents will be their worse night mare. If we can get Betts and
A. Patterson. NI can take a chance on the local girl Mila Reynolds. I would
put Betts as the keys in 2022 recruiting with AP a close 2nd. 2022 and
completely loaded and I believe favors ND with so many players in their
recruiting area.
SEG/Chief
I do worry about her knee though. I'd like to see Dani Cosgrove develop into a more physical inside presence; she has the potential to do it.
..it's her first injury and she's young, energetic, lithe and healthy. (Having had the pleasure of sitting next to she and her mom at the Fordham game).
Remember, players can come back from these injuries: Jess Shepard had an ACL in high school.
This is tempered by the fact that all athletes are different. Bri had a pretty extended recovery state...she's great now, but it took awhile to come back and get her "burst" back.
And Nat has not had the benefit of gyms being opened, so she is probably a behind on her workouts. In fact, depending on what happens with the season, it will be interesting to see if she suits up or takes a medical redshirt.
Both in quality and quantity. We traditionally have done very well recruiting smart and talented guards.
Can and will do whatever is necessary to win within the team concept.
Go big or go home.
IMO, McGraw's one big albatross that prevented her from even more titles was her low-post recruiting.
McGraw won her 1st title because she had a big in Riley.
She lost in a title game to A&M because they had a wide bodied big(Adams?) that ND couldn't stop. ND had the G's, but not enough in the post.
ND lost a title to Baylor in 2012 because they had Griner.
UConn won 4 straight titles with their legit Big in Stewart.
Put her on ND and McGraw would have won 4 more titles.
What has UConn won since without her?
ND won it all in 2018 with a legit big in Shepard. Arike and others were vital--but you can't win it all with a true force down low.
You bring up many excellent and interesting points.
I hope Ivey realizes how important low post play is. I'm sure she does, and hope to see her recruit with that in mind when recruiting for the 2022 class.
aircraft carrier. Yes, I am a broken record. Those final four (or final two) losses all lost to a big we could not handle. TA&M, Baylor (2X), UConn (sort of). With Jess we beat MSU and McKeown (Sp?).
Devereaux Peters (6'2) had 21 points in that game. Bruszewski (6'1) and Achonwa (6'3) were also on the team at that time. 6'1 Danielle Adams had the game of her life scoring 30. She just played better and wanted it more. Our guards were turnover machines for a large part of that game. Could the post defense have been better? Oh yes. But our guards didn't have the best game either.
It only matters that the offense is organized and the team takes care of the ball. Generally that's the responsibility of the point guard. However, there are examples of forwards being the ones who have that responsibility. Even when there is the one primary ball handler who's the organizer-in-chief, there isn't a single type. Some shoot and score a lot while others seldom shoot.
Lindsay Allen is what I think most people would consider the prototype point guard. She kept the team organized, and she almost always got the ball to the right place on time.
I would argue that Kathryn Westbeld kept the team organized and the ball moving after the point guards' injuries during the national championship season, especially during the time that Marina Mabrey was trying to get a handle on the job.
Yes, we did win a title sans a true PG. However, that same season we really struggled to get the ball up the court against the pressure UL brought -- and that was directly tied to not having a true PG and the top level ball handling skills that come with an elite PG.
We were able to overcome not having a PG because we had 5 WNBA draft picks starting. That's not something we can replicate annually.
a Lindsay Allen or an Olivia Miles and just be done with it, but the job could be adequately done with a group of good ball handlers. And the team might be better overall for it. I also agree it invites a pressure defense, which also must be considered. There's a reason most teams want a traditional point guard, as you say. It's easier. But again, as individual players improve all around play and get bigger, I can also see teams, like some men's teams and the NBA, preferring to do without the traditional point guard.
As I look this over, I'm more or less just agreeing with you without adding anything new, which, I guess, is OK also.
Natalie Achonwa was a marvelous decision maker with the ball: she knew when to shoot the J, drive or distribute. Jewell Loyd called her "amazing" and "loved" playing with her.
When ND uses its Princeton offense, the high post position is often as important as the point guard. It's the center of all the moving spokes and the person playing it can make the determination as to where the ball goes: cutting guards, spot-up shooters, etc. The high post in the Princeton is often the flow-master. Ace and Kat, as Kayo, points out had a good handle on it.
And I'd argue that Shep, when she wasn't knocking people out of the lane, was a great distributor as well. Remember her kick-out pass to Marina in the Miss. State game? Crucial!
I wasn't overwhelmed with Mik Vaughn having her back to the basket out by the elbow and thought that greatly limited the mobility of the overall offense. Mik is best positioned down low, a la Bri Turner.
I wouldn't be surprised to see if Maddy Westbeld is tried at the high post.
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Also agree that a point does not have to be a Tiny Archibald or Big O.
Niele, Lindsay, Marina/Jackie all had variations on it that ultimately worked.
They've got to have a good feel for the game situation, what the opponent is doing, what her team can do best against it and then orchestrate it.
Sometimes it's pretty direct (hey, get it to Bri). Other times, it's part of the plan (Princeton, get it to the high post). Or work a pick and roll.
I expect Niele to have some ideas depending on personnel strengths, both individually and collectively. And in 2021, I expect Olivia Miles to be able to do just about any of them. That's why Niele wanted her so much.
the offense. Not critical that the organizer be the point guard. But it sure helps. See Lindsay Allen. What a calming influence for all four years.
ND wasn't in the Princeton all the time (with Jewell around, you'd want to take advantage of her individual skills) and Lindsay was a perfect conductor.
That talent, which so often was kept low-key, is now kind of obvious, given her professional success playing in the WNBA and the Aussie League, where she was arguably one of the top 5 players this year, along with Kia Nurse and Bri Turner.