in terms of basketball and in general. Outside of Marquette in the 70s, none of them have sustained any significant success. Villanova, UConn, and Georgetown have won 8 of the last 40 NCAA tourneys.

I hope you are joking.

Creighton, for example, has been in the Big East for 8 years. Record 173-95, for winning percentage of 64.5

ND has been in the ACC for the same 8 years. Record 163-106, for winning percentage of 60.

Most people have never heard of Creighton, and I'm guessing even most college basketball fans couldn't tell you what city/state it is in. I realize they've been fairly successful over the last couple decades, but not successful enough to really elevate their profile like a Gonzaga. Schools like UConn and Villanova are orders of magnitude higher profile as basketball programs, and schools like Notre Dame and Georgetown could go a decade without winning a single basketball game and would still be orders of magnitude higher profile as institutions. It would make zero sense for ND to cast their lot with the likes of Creighton over the current ACC or Big East schools. I realize Creighton is a current Big East school, but it's not one of the bellwethers of the group, whereas it would be in Cold's new conference.

that ND has over these schools. If popularity is the goal, fantastic then! In my view, given ND's "higher profile" it is even more disappointing that the basketball performance isn't better.

I didn't advocate for the OP's idea of ND forming or joining a conference with the listed schools. I don't think that would be a viable option for many reasons.

Your reference to Gonzaga is interesting. Years ago, when I lived on the West Coast, Gonzaga was a middle-of-the road WCAC team. Pepperdine and Loyola Marymount were consistently better. Their first NCAA appearance was in 1994. They've been a fixture since 1999. Certainly schools like Creighton, Xavier, and Marquette haven't come close to building or maintaining that kind of success. But the Gonzaga example is very telling - that success is attainable regardless of whether "most people" know where you are located.

Creighton assuredly is not embarrassing itself in the Big East. I think the academics standard is very high there (I'm biased, like you), and their sports teams and facilities are quite good.

I attended the Big East basketball tourney in NYC at Madison Square Garden in 2017...Creighton traveled quite well, some 3k fans were there, represented itself with class...and the team made the finals. Last year, they tied for 1st in the Big East, would have made the tourney with a low #2 or high #3 seed, and were in the top 10 at the end of the season. This year, made the finals of the Big East tourney, made the sweet 16 and unfortunately ran into a buzz saw in Gonzaga (who didn't?)

Creighton was better last year than this year, imo.

no one is arguing that a school like Creighton is elite...but your assertion that it is small timey is pure ND arrogance? Has ND been to a Final Four in your lifetime? I'm 51 and the last time they did it was when I was 8 years old.

I love ND basketball, but Creighton's program is better than ND's right now. They made Big East finals this year...they made it to the Sweet 16 and would have last year if not for covid (they were better last year than this year and finished first in the Big East) They rank in the top 5 for NCAA men's attendance (great arena, poor Nebraska basketball program, and serving beer helps out a ton) Creighton would not have accomplished this if they had continued on in the Missouri Valley...the move to the Big East was a masterful stroke by their AD and President...in 10 years they'll be an even better program than they are today.

North Carolina beat ND by 42 points in the conference tourney and Roy Williams retired because he wasn't getting the job done. ND is in basketball hell right now...I don't see how they break out of it (we both know JS couldn't hire a basketball coach worth $%&#)

Wilt and I combined for 100 points in a game once. Okay, they account for 1 of the 8 titles you mention, but it's the oldest one (1984) and have only been back to the Final Four once (2007) since the mid-80s and haven't made it to the sweet 16 since that appearance.

Of course, there are plenty of reasons why Georgetown is a storied program and will continue to be well-known, but if you're basing your argument on recent tourney success then I don't think they fit that mold any better than Marquette, Xavier or Creighton. Maybe even Loyola.

in the proposed new conference, and Loyola and Marquette also have only been to one Final 4 in that time period. I certainly get it that there's a gap between Villanova/UConn and the rest in terms of accomplishments over the last 40 years, especially if you attribute higher value to more recent accomplishments, but I think there's also a similarly large gap between Georgetown and everyone else in this discussion. The only other team that has arguably accomplished what Georgetown has is Marquette, but their golden era (1970s) is even longer ago than Georgetown's (1980s).

over the past few decades many of the teams on that list have accomplished as much or more than we have.

Since 2000, we’ve inarguably been more successful than Detroit, Creighton, Dayton, DePaul and Saint Louis. I’d say pretty clearly more successful than Loyola, too, unless you (in my opinion) significantly overvalue the Final Four.

We’re more or less even with Marquette, but if you want to give them the tiebreaker due to the Travis Diener Final Four then that’s fine.

I’d say Xavier is the only one on that list that without a doubt has been better than us.

is where would their other sports land? Doubtful they could stay in their current conference.

So if they do form this conference it would seem that it would need to be a multisport conference, no football.

correct!

The marquee attraction would be men's basketball but the member schools could also participate and compete as a conference for other sports.

The group does not include any D-1 football schools.

downgrade for ND baseball and many of the non-rev sports. Several of those schools only support 6-7 sports.

Not sure how many of those schools even sponsor D1 baseball? (Obviously Marquette, DePaul, Detroit and Loyola don't). I know SLU and Dayton are awful in the A10 as it stands.

Villanova
Georgetown
Marquette
St John's
Providence
DePaul
Creighton
Xavier
Providence

and
Butler
UConn

why would members trade out Nova/Georgetown (academically for Detroit/Loyola/St Louis)

It would be a big step down in competition and money for Marquette, Xavier, Creighton, and DePaul. Why would those schools want to stop playing Georgetown and Villanova and replace those games with Detroit and St. Louis?

would consider it

Does continued membership in the Big East have any significant ongoing benefit for DePaul, Marquette, Creighton, and Xavier?

St. Louis, Loyola Chicago, Dayton, and Detroit would welcome the proposed conference whose public identity would be top level men's basketball.

The Big East is too broad and over extended geographically. It might be time for the Big East to return completely to its original blueprint powered by Georgetown, St. John's, Villanova, Providence, Seton Hall, etc.

The proposed new conference of Midwest schools could develop quickly an identity as a major conference for men's basketball, securing more than a single invite to the annual national tournament.

As the Big East thrived on the New York market, the proposed Midwest conference would appeal to the large media markets, centering in Chicago.

brings those schools men's basketball contracts with FOX and CBS plus all-important and ill-defined exposure.

Logic may tell DePaul it's time to look for something new, but DePaul believes it's the right coach away from becoming very relevant. Marquette would see it as a "step back." Loyola might be thrilled, because many LUC backers believe the school has outgrown the Valley.

Trading Georgetown, Villanova, etc. for Detroit, St. Louis, Dayton holds no appeal for DePaul, Marquette and the other Big East members without "Here's what the broadcast contract is going to be and our tournament is going to be [wherever] (tell that to recruits!)"

Does having the men's bb tournament in MSG help schools with recruiting? I don't know, but if schools believe it does it's an advantage they don't want to give up without a similar venue or an upgrade.

Dayton started investigating "how do we get into that league?" as soon news of the reformed league was out and the school wasn't included. Would the school automatically jump from the A-10 for this new venture?

If University presidents and administrations were on board maybe, but they tend to care a lot about money too. Not many in athletics are going to go for it unless hand is forced.

Your thoughts are persuasively stated. Thanks for sharing.

picking on Creighton...they left the MVC with names like Illinois St, Wichita State, Missouri State, Northern Iowa and replaced them with Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Xavier, DePaul, Providence...far better academic schools. The Big East pretty much starts at Creighton in the West and follows almost a straight line due East to the East Coast.

To me the Big East is a great conference for these types of schools and I don't know what replacing them with SLU, Dayton, and Detroit would do for them.