Mark Helfrich in 2016, a coach who had even produced a Heisman Trophy winner. The Ducks are on to the second coach since then. Still Mario Cristobal is 10-2 in his second year (like Kelly is currently), playing in the PAC12 championship game tonite and likely in the Rose Bowl this year, win or lose (if Utah makes the playoffs). Last year, his first at Oregon, he won his bowl game against Michigan State and had the #6 recruiting class in the nation, well ahead of Kelly's #14. 2020 the two are recruiting on par (#13 & 14 per ESPN), but Mario still has the top recruiting class in the PAC12. He's done a great job, but we will see how he does when he loses Herbert next year, as Helfrich fell off with the loss of Mariotta.
Frankly, as an alumnus of both schools, I felt back in 2016 Kelly was more deserving to be fired than Helfrich, who was at least a nice guy. Still I wanted them both fired and since Oregon did it and ND didn't it, I converted all my university donations away from ND (and I was Sorin Gold) to Oregon and other schools and can't wait until Kelly (or Swarbrick) is gone so I can get back at supporting my school financially.
One thing I can truly say I am far more upbeat about Duck football and University of Oregon athletics across the board than I am about ND. I am truly glad the Oregon AD had the guts to do the right thing and we are so better off because of it.
...very physical style of play to Oregon. And he is upping the talent level in Eugene. His time under Saban appears to have served him well.
And the new coach had the exact same results as BK did the last 3 years? Where would everyone sit? Would we want to fire the new coach?
Pretty tough to fire a new guy with that record.
If his entire record was Kelly's peak three years, then he would be more meritorious of time to see if he can make the next jump up. Like, say, Dabo or--to some extent--Mack Brown. But his job wouldn't be secure. He would know that if that jump isn't made, he won't keep his job. And if I were the AD, I would expect that it is unlikely the jump will be made, and I'd be evaluating other possible candidates accordingly.
But he wouldn't have been the coach who went 4-8; who lost twice to Navy; who lost to Tulsa, Northwestern, Duke, and South Florida. He'd have started with a blank slate, and not this BS reboot that was supposed to erase our memories of everything but the feeling in the locker room after the USC game in 2012.
Also have exhibited the same Kelly-trademarked assholery, mind-numbingly baffling decisions (like passing 45 times in torrential downpours), and other similar head-scratchers that Kelly has produced over his tenure?
Yes, I'd want him replaced the same as BK for being incapable of beating elite teams.
One problem with your hypothetical is that we have more than 3 years of Kelly history, which should not be ignored simply to fall back on the "last 3 years" of results. Nobody should be thrilled/satisfied with those results.
So the pertinent question, you regularly ignore, is what evidence exists that Kelly (or any other coach) can get the team over the hump agaisnt elite competition?
What's Kelly's evidence?
Mike Brey has had similar ups and downs. Now it's a different scale and a different climate to compare on court/field success between football and basketball at Notre Dame, however there is a difference in attitude and culture. In a sense Brey gets Notre Dame in ways that Kelly never will. The fans/players are much more inclined to give Mike a pass for a lower expectation season/recruiting class that Brian and it's not just because of the perceived value of the MBB vs FB.
Brian has some of the same bad character traits as the previous failed coaches: hubris, quick to deflect blame, and often as quick to take the credit, inability to ID and retain a complete staff along with an unwillingness to accept challenges/change of thinking from said staff. All of these rub fans, assistants, and players the wrong way. Combined with an inability to properly sell ND to top recruits
We’d know he’s not the one to deliver a national championship.
If ND fired BK and hired freaking PJ Fleck that would be colossally stupid.
Fleck is the flavor of the month, similar to Tom Herman, or Rich Rod, or Todd Graham, or yes (even BK back in the day). Except Fleck is worse. At least BK actually went 12-0 at Cincinnati and made a BCS game, and did well there for multiple years.
PJ Fleck has done what exactly?
He's won 8 games at Minnesotta this year and beat an overranked Penn State team? Except that last year he went 7-6 and the year before 5-7. "But wait" you say: "he's improving a terrible program and taking it to unprecedented highs". Aha, not so fast... Minnesotta has actually been doing pretty much just as well through then end of the Jerry Kill and the brief Tracy Claeys era. Fleck has essentially done nothing to elevate the program above where it was the decade prior to his showing up.
Definitely can understand the debate and differing opinions as to whether PJ Fleck has proved enough, is “ready” for or is a good fit for ND. Jury is probably out still and it’s reasonable to conclude his style and personality aren’t and never will be a good fit at ND.
Living in Kalamazoo, growing up in Big Ten country, watching him up close and from a distance, he did things at WMU that likely won’t be repeated, ever. 13-0 reg season, beating multiple power 5 opponents, drawing ESPN College GameDay here, and recruiting at unprecedented levels for a MAC school - let alone one with no history of winning like WMU. It’s early at MN still, but he beat their biggest rival on the road last year and beat a top 5-10 team in Penn State this year. Not exactly things MN does, ever.
The most important takeaway about Fleck though is he is a flat out relentless and supremely energetic & enthusiastic recruiter and motivator. Watching the skill positions at MN and a few of his recruits at WMU still, other than Claypool, those schools have better overall talent at RB and WR than ND, imho. That should NEVER be the case.
Those 2 qualities are an absolute must in whoever the next coach is at ND. They sure aren’t present now.
1-11, 8-5, 8-5, 13-1 (losing to Wisconsin 24-16 in the Cotton Bowl and finishing #15)
Minn has won 10 games twice in their history. This year and 10-3 2003.
kil went 3-9, 6-7, 8-5, 8-5, 6-7 (kil 4-3, claeys 2-4)
claeys then went 9-4 before Fleck took over.
Fleck has gone 5-7, 7-6, 10-2
Fleck has the highest winning percentage of any MN coach since 1950.
Post 1899 the three coaches ahead of him left in 1921, 1929, 1950.
He's definitely a "flavor of the month", but I'd take him over our stale imbecile any day of the week. Heck, I'd take a Ravens food vendor...
Personally, I don't like him, and hope he does not coach at ND.
Minnesota won 23 games the three seasons before he arrived. They've won 22 games in his three seasons. He's a good fit at smaller schools they can buy into his underdog mentality. I don't think he would be a good fit at Notre Dame.
The Penn State win was big, but he's 2-10 in his career against ranked teams, and #24 Toledo was the other win. If you think it's asking too much for him to beat ranked teams at Western Michigan and Minnesota consider that he's 7-24 against teams that finish with less than six losses in his career, and one of those two wins this season depends on Georgia Southern winning a bowl game. Basically his entire resume is built on beating teams he should have beaten and then beating a team that struggled to beat Pitt and Indiana this year.
"Who has he coached under"?
His success at Minn certainly trumps whatever BK had when he ascended to the ND throne.
Swarbrick needs to make like hobbs and watch every down of every Baylor game and press conference next year.
If we don't/can't get Meyer.
We might be on our second or third coach by now, which may not have been a bad thing as we may have got one right.
Kelly’s curse is that he’s sticky without the requisite upside.
the NFL standings, and I keep a mental list of which teams might fire their coaches at season's end. I have this crazy idea that if 10 or more teams are looking for coaches, Kelly is likely to get a look or two.
If the ND admin won't relieve us of him, I hold out hope the NFL will, if enough jobs open.
I'm a firm believer in the idea that we just keep trying until we find the right coach, and your post is right on the mark.
They went thru a boatload of coaches between their NC with Stallings in the early 90's to the point they Hired Saban in 2007.
I remember people saying Alabama would never win a title or be great again. Or be able to recruit a top 5 class. And then along came Saban. It is all about the HC.
As soon a you really know you have a coach who will never win you a NC--dump him.
It is absolutely crazy and sinful that ND is willing to waste even more years on Kelly. We can never get those yeas back. I doubt any of us will ever see ND win another national title. Monk got his wish.
"Folt placed the onus on the fans to continue backing an underperforming and undercoached team".
"Granted, outside of Meyer, none of Helton’s possible replacements represented a sure bet. That shouldn’t have stopped the administration from making a change. So maybe the school will have to swing-and-miss on a few hires before finding the version of Pete Carroll who won’t land them on probation.
Or maybe it will never find him. That’s not the point. The striving is what matters. Striving inspires hope. Striving reinforces ideas of self identity.
The moment USC football abandons its pursuit of national championships is when it stops being special and becomes like any other Power Five program.
That’s what USC has become...
This isn’t permanent. Not yet. A year or two more of Helton won’t erase the program’s incredible history.
But the longer Helton is around, the more his successor will have to overcome."
southern cal opens with 'bama next year.