December. Hence me saying she will be out 10 or so games and ramping up after that. As for your points on Emma, that is a carbon copy of Miles, Citron, Arike, Marina, Young, etc -- all players that had to ramp up and did not instantly play at their ultimate elite level.

I remain convinced that no one outside the program has any idea when Olivia is going to be available. She may not play at all this season, and that affects everything.

December. (I wonder how many others weren't as well?).

As to Emma, you may well be right, we'll have to wait and see.

So Hannah and Anna will share running the show until Liv returns. That may will pay dividends in the long run. I think they will do a very good job handling it, but Olivia Miles is special and the team will miss her.

So as you stated the team will not be whole until mid season.

I will be absolutely shocked if NI plays her even one second before she thinks she is at least 99.9% recovered. There really is no need to - because the end of the season is what matters, not what happens November and December.

Also, December 1 is much different than December 31. 12/1 is in effect the start of the season.

after she is full recovered?

the outpouring of support for her was heart warming. I just can't figure out why the secrecy is needed or helpful.

However, if that's Liv's decision we have to respect it. At this point we all know it's fairly serious. (Anyone watching the actual injury knew that.)

the right to keep it private. It's likely different in the pro sports because they are employees and probably signed something that allows the leagues to disclose based on their cryptic rules on injury status.

If the trainers or coaches know what the injury is they are not legally obligated to keep it a secret. If Olivia prefers not to share it with the rest of the world then it is a courtesy to her that everyone else is maintaining silence.

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largest drug safety consulting company in the world and having all top 50 pharmaceutical companies as my customers and hosting over 200 pharmaceutical company's safety database systems.

My company is (EDIT: was not -- I sold the company) not a healthcare provider nor are pharmaceutical companies considered to be healthcare porviders, yet we all had to adhere to HIPPA regulations (along with a pile of other ones -- especially when you do the union of every single law worldwide where an approved or phase 3 clinical product exists). It was an explicit part of every contract we entered into, part of the incredibly detailed and complex security audits we had to pass before a company could legally contract with us, etc.

Above said, your point still stands because if it is true players have signed a waiver upon accepting a scholarship at ND, then it is moot. The doctors employed by ND that are working with any athlete would legally be considered healthcare providers BTW - hence unable to disclose data to anyone sans a waiver allowing them to do it (so a coach could not get the info from the team doctor sans that waiver).

EDIT2: Also, those trainers and likely all coaches are going to likely be legally required to sign confidentiality agreements related to this matter. That CDA is what allows the doctor to then share information with them -- and for that matter is part of what lets the trainers diagnose injuries, etc. It then knits it all together all the way back to the HCP that is bound by HIPPA. It in effect is what trickled down to the pharmaceutical companies who then had to pass it down to every single vendor they interact with that can in any way access patient data (which the pharmaceutical companies get from the HCPs for every adverse event that is reported).

Yes, any business or organization that handles or transmits patient information upstream from the patient falls under HIPAA and by HHS definition is a "covered entity". I worked within the pharmaceutical and medical device industry for 30 years and oversaw several clinical trials for new devices and I, and our companies, were required to adhere to robust confidentiality provision in handling patient data.

Too many people misunderstand what HIPAA is and they assume that it applies to everyone. There are some other grey areas around college trainers depending on whether they are employed by the university athletic department or by the university hospital to which athletes are referred to for care so a thorough and detailed waiver is probably advisable for all concerned.

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She started every game of her career at Fordham and played many games against P5 opponents. Ultimately, she won't reach the levels that those other players will but I'm certain Niele will use her to grease the skids while others are getting used to it.

As you state, it turns out she was not a nicety but a necessity. Hannah will get a lot of playing time and will excel at times, but having a proven player at the point is a big asset.

I just hope we see an Olivia Miles at 100% earlier, rather than later in the season. (January?)

there might be some other kinks in the "Split Season" theory:
1) What about Lindsay Schrader, Lindsay Allen, Jacqueline Batteast, Ruth Riley?
2) MPG posted that he saw Olivia briefly on May 15. She was without crutches and with no visible limp. (Dara still had crutches.) Granted, it was just a glance and he was not nearby. So, we are still guessing, but December sounds pessimistic at this point.
3) Hannah’s ESPN rank is 5, Jewel’s rank was 4, Skyler's rank was 3. Lindsay Allen, who definitely "hit the ground instantly running" was ranked 25.

It's a nice theory for consideration, however. We shall see.

and scored 29 pts on 13-18 shooting and had 9 rebounds in 19 minutes played. She started 138 of 139 games played (I think she didn't start on senior night) and lead the country in FG% as a freshman. I would call that hitting the ground running.

I have a list of phrases that repeatedly show up on McGraw's Bench. Number 1, I'm pretty sure is, "Bigs take longer to adjust to the college game."

Thanks for the exploding post.

And, yes, I looked her up when irncty posted Emma's numbers. Bri, senior year, had an eFG% of 63.2! (Of course, that was her FG% also.) I don't know if that was her best. Maybe freshman year.

I agree that many frontcourt players take time to adjust to the college game. My totally unsupported opinion is that they often develop some bad habits by dominating high school games against lesser, smaller players and need to adjust to playing against peers day in and day out. The more recent phenomenon of AAU tournaments and international exposure at younger ages no doubtedly helps some develop faster by increasing the level of competition forcing them to up their game.

from being on the short list of best players ever at ND. Even with them she was pretty darn good.

Career Records:
Rebounds: 1st with 1,048 (Riley 2nd)
Blocked Shots: 1st with 372 (Riley 2nd)
Points Scored: 6th with 2,017 (Riley 5th)
Field Goal Percentage: 2nd with 62.4% (Riley 1st at 63.2%)

Yes, it seemed like her first couple of seasons were limited by a bum shoulder and, of course, the ACL kept her out an entire season but her PER each season (according to basketballreference.com) was 33.5, 33.2, 31.6, and 33.3. Not only was she outstanding but she was amazingly consistent.

we are wrong for saying that, just that it is repeated often …sometimes as if we have never heard it before. But it is also nice to keep in mind that there are exceptions. Nothing is written, except, maybe, death and taxes.

A general rule is that freshmen tend to tire out later in the season and hit what is referred to as "the Freshman Wall." Unfortunately for us, Breanna Stewart didn't seem to get the memo regarding that one.

the mythical "Freshman Wall" with Sonia Citron. She got better later in the season. That one may be more of a "wives' tale" than a "general rule". We need more data!

It's specifically meant to be around Tournament time, since High School seasons don't last nearly that long. However, things might have changed now with more AAU teams, etc. resulting in players being used to playing for long stretches of time.

Sonia Citron did better at tournament time. Up until the tournament games, she scored 11.8 ppg, 43.3 fg%, 15.37 Efficiency rating, and 48.3 efg%—all excellent! During the tournament games she scored 12.8 ppg, 56.1 fg%, 16.25 Efficiency rating, and 58.5 efg%. (When I say tournament games, I mean ACC and NCAA.)

I agree with you that because of the longer season and that the games are against tougher opponents, you would think that the "Freshman Wall" would be real. For those two, at least, it was not. As I say, we need more data.

Maybe you are on to something with all the summer playing time in high school. The fact that some freshmen do even better against late season, tournament-quality opponents, probably says more to the character of the player.

Luckily I had just dug some stuff out of my storage unit, including a box with some of my old media guides. I checked out the one that had her freshman year stats.

She didn't start until the 7th game of the season. In the first 6 games, her minute totals were:

Butler: 11 minutes, 6 points, 3 rebounds
Duke: 18 minutes, 7 points, 5 rebounds (Fouled out)
UC SB: 15 minutes, 6 points, 5 rebounds
UCLA: 10 minutes, 0 points, 3 rebounds
Rutgers: 5 minutes, 0 points, 1 rebound
UConn: 4 minutes , 2 points, 1 rebound

BTW, ND went 2-4 in those 6 games, with the two wins coming against Butler and UCLA, but that kind of start isn't surprising when you graduate 4 starters from the previous year's team.

And even when she did start, in her first two starts she played fewer minutes (just barely) than Julie Henderson.

Like a lot of bigs, she took a little while to really get her footing.

I think it's interesting you mention Riley, though, because her classmate Kelly Siemon actually did start in those first 6 games, although for some reason she didn't start in the first game that Riley started in (no, Riley didn't replace her in the lineup. Hutchinson did for some reason).

the start. Jackie Batteast played major and effective minutes from the start. Lindsay Schrader needed time to adjust. Ruth Riley, like most bigs, had adjustments to make to the level of competition in college.

was guessing about the others from articles and how many games they started in their freshman year (and records they set). It seems like btd's point that it is unusual not to have a 10 game adjustment period is valid, but not certain.

Many years ago (like back in the Holtz era) I noticed what would often happen on ND boards regarding attitudes of some of the fervent, but not necessarily knowledgeable, fans to Offensive Linemen who were coming in, usually with a lot of accolades:

1. When they arrive at ND: "Great! An AA Lineman! Can't wait to see how he does on the field."
2. After their freshman year, when he was most likely redshirted: "Hey, he was supposed to be great. Why didn't he play?"
3. After their sophomore year, when he'd most likely get garbage time, if he played at all. "He's not playing much. I thought he was supposed to be great."
4. After his junior year, when he was playing a bunch, possibly even starting: "Well, he's starting to show some stuff after not playing earlier in his career."
5. After his senior year and all through his 5th year: "He's definitely All American material!"

And the player would get into the NFL and play for a few years there.

Obviously this isn't what would happen with every OL recruit, but it happened often enough to seem to make a pattern.