In reply to: The war changed today posted by ndsapper
1. Palestine has a legitimate claim to the land they desire. Japan and Germany did not.
2. Palestinians at large do not support Hamas.
"In reality, polling conducted prior to the most recent outbreak of violence showed that Gazans prefer virtually every alternative political group over Hamas. Most Gazans wanted Hamas to stop calling for the destruction of Israel and instead move forward with a two-state solution. An even larger share hoped Hamas would continue abiding by its cease-fire with Israel. Contrary to Israeli President Herzog’s insinuations, this was not a conflict Gazans were looking for. Hamas’s actions do not represent the expressed will or interests of most Gazans. These are demonstrable facts.
It’s also true that, for more than a decade, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has explicitly sought to bolster Hamas in order to divide Palestinians against one another and discredit the Palestinian cause. As recently as 2019, Netanyahu is on record telling Likud Party representatives in the Knesset that “anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is a part of our strategy.” Indeed, it has been part of Israeli hard-liners’ strategy since Hamas’s origin."
Yes, Hamas is an evil organization that we should hope is eliminated. Going scorched Earth on all of Gaza in an attempt to do so is inhumane and wrong.
What makes their claim legitimate?
Before anyone throws empties at me, I think they do have one, and the 1948 agreement was the basis of that, as it was for Palestinians.
However, in the past week I've seen 50 different maps, each one purporting to "prove" that either Palestine didn't exist, did exist, wasn't as big as people think, etc. I don't trust any of them.
Since my limited history knowledge starts with Judea, goes to the Ottoman Empire and Mandatory Palestine, I don't see a lot of historic claim for a specific people over another. I still think a 2 state solution with strong peace agreements and humanitarian aid, is the only way.
as much of a claim as any western power.
No one has a bonafide claim to the land. This is why the issue is toxic, and why no one has a good solution.
The land has always been a majority Arab, with a steady flow of Jewish immigration beginning around 1900. Jewish immigration was an intentional strategy used to bolster the Jewish claim to the land (along with the JNF and Rothschild money funding an effort to buy up land). This gives them both a claim of some sort to the land.
The topic has layers upon layers of history, and anyone pointing to a map to prove anything has an agenda and should be dismissed.
I mean to say- there’s an argument that can be made. This isn’t Germany saying “well we would like Poland because wouldn’t that be fun?”.
You’re the Curtis LeMay of this board.
As ufl asks, where exactly do you expect the 2 million Gazans to go?
And don’t say Egypt or Jordan, because that ain’t happening.
Are you sincerely asking where they will go? Also are we quibbling about the numbers? Estimates have around 400k already out of there. Some number of fighters are going to stay. Some others will not be able to leave. If we end up with 1.5 million relocating will I be "wrong?"
I would say 50-75k are going to go the grave. The rest are going to flee wherever they can. I think my KIA / civilian casualty count is low. I'm actually shocked they are letting people out and that some idiot Hamas supported hasn't blown himself up at a checkpoint yet.
And you didn’t answer.
I don't know why you think it matters where they go. Whatever point you are trying to make will be so far OBE by this weekend that you won't even remember whatever point you're trying to make here.
And even when I was in it's highly meta.
https://www.quora.com/What-does-the-acronym-OBE-mean-in-the-military
Basically appropriate in situations like this where someone is blathering on about something and meanwhile, almost instantly, the thing they're blathering on about is now irrelevant because events show their concern is no longer relevant.
as does Israel. So no, they shouldn't just render Gaza uninhabitable. That would effectively mean the end of Israel, and we would suffer greatly as a result.
Yes, hope is not a strategy, but neither is rage, as we have also learned. And no, no one will owe you an apology if there is an attack on Americans. Will you apologize if Israel does as you suggest, and the war broadens and brings about American involvement, American casualties, and eventually a catastrophic attack here in the U.S.?
We are all aware that many Americans have already been killed in the initial attack by the savages from Hamas. Hamas needs to be dealt with. There are ways to do that without wantonly massacring the innocent to prove some ill-conceived point.
It's predictions. It's not prescription. It's prediction.
It's not endorsement. It's prediction.
So far it's proved right.
Dude. It’s been a week.
Why the question mark. Am I going to be "wrong" in your eyes if the number ends up being 1.8 million?
You mean that they'll be relocated within Gaza, right?
I also predict that Gaza is going to be an afterthought within days or weeks. There are going to be strikes throughout the west bank, Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, and Syria. I also predict you won't even remember this conversation a year from now because of how awful things are going to go. We are talking about the first pawns getting wiped off the map.
Firing rockets into Israel is one thing. Beheading babies touches a collective nerve that traces all the way back to the nightmare of the holocaust. Israel activated 300k reservists. They didn't do that to go into Gaza and kill a few people.
I don't think that we are willing to let Israel attack Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iran, along with the West Bank and Gaza. (Israel has peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan, so this is highly unlikely.) Lebanon is probably inevitable, once Hezzbollah gets involved.
While revenge against Hamas is on the menu, WWIII isn't. The US isn't going to provide cash and military aid so that Israel can attack the entire Middle East. It's simply not realistic.
They aren’t waiting on the us when it comes to self defense.
https://iranprimer.usip.org/blog/2022/aug/11/timeline-israeli-attacks-iran
I don’t mean to say we are going to see tanks in Tehran but between drones and missiles things are going to get spicy.