I think its best to talk about the docuseries here. I hope thats ok. I know there was a little discussion about it the BR.
I finally caught up and watch Sundays episodes. Those 2 episodes were fantastic. I could watch a 10 part series on the Dream Team alone. Im surprised they didnt touch on the scrimmage the team had with the college all stars. Players including Webber, Hurley, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, among others beat the team, which was what Coach Daly was hoping for. But watching the Dream Team scrimmage with Magic talking shit to Jordan is just perfect basketball tv. The Dream Team documentary goes deeper into that scrimmage too. Malone trying to prove he was better than Barkley. Robinson and Ewing trying to show who was the best center. That scrimmage should have been on primetime.
Either way, its sad to me how a whole generation of basketball fans have now not seen Jordan play in real time. I dont think his passion and competitiveness are fully realized by contemporaries who see LeBron as the greatest ever. This docuseries has done a good job to show how crazy Jordan actually was. He gets visibly upset losing $20 to a security guard playing some stupid coin toss game. That was his personality.
I was never a Bulls fan, but how could you not like Jordan? Yeah he was an ass at times, but he played the game with so much passion, its hard not to respect him at the very least. You watch this series and you wonder how did he ever lose even one playoff game once he was in his prime.
Who has seen MJ professionally: score 40+ in B ball game, hit a home run and steal a base.
I forget what his career stats were for the latter 2 but there were not a lot of chances to see him do either of them as I recall.
I lived in Al for a few years and went up to see him with the barons. He pretty much looked like any other prospect. Nothing special.
Quasi
to look like any other prospect, when he had not played baseball in years, and never higher than high school, is pretty amazing.
I've enjoyed seeing his clutch performances revisited.
There was his off-balance jumper to beat the Pacers in 1986 that put the Bulls into the playoffs, despite MJ missing more than 60 games and enduring Krause's demand that Stan Albeck yank Jordan off the floor for the last 30 seconds of that game. Without Pax's bucket, there never would've been a Jordan 63-point game in the opening round of the playoffs against the Celtics.
In the 1991 Finals, Pax's 20-point effort, including his finishing kick (5 jumpers in the last 4 minutes), to help clinch the Bulls' first title against the Lakers was a blast to see again.
And while everyone knows about Pax's three-pointer to win the third title after every player on the floor touched the ball, few probably recalled that those were the only points scored by any player other than Jordan during Q4 of the win against Phoenix.
Behind that wonderful moment, Pax was getting close to the end. During the 92-93 season, BJ Armstrong had taken over as the Bulls starting PG. Pax's minutes declined as he lived through serious knee pain, a surgery that failed, and a number of weeks on the sidelines. Even during the Finals, Pax's minutes were limited. In Phoenix's epic 3 OT win during Game 3, Pax played 5 out of the 63 minutes.
Yet Jackson played him in Game 6 for 20+ minutes. But when Phil took him out of that game with less than 6 minutes to play, Pax was not sure he'd re-enter the game. Of course, he did and he was ready to deliver when presented with the opportunity of a lifetime.
One year later, his career on the court was done.
John Paxson remains one of the true class acts in ND history.
job with the Bulls longer than he should have.
No more GarPax.
. . . certainly wasn't his fault. I don't follow the Bulls closely at all, but that guy could've been one of the best players in the history of the sport. MVP at age 22. A shell of his former self not long afterwards.
It's impossible to win consistently in that league without true stars. And it's tough to draft stars when you're not near the top of the lottery.
But I'll leave the details to Bulls fans.
Tyrus Thomas and a Russian for LaMarcus Aldridge.
Trading two mid first round draft picks to take Dougie McBuckets.
Denver selected Gary Harris and Nurkic.
Drafting Marcus Teague, Tony Snell and Valentine.
Now credit where credit is due: Butler and Gibson.
The Bulls are the longest shot team to ever win the lottery, as they had only a 1-point-something chance that year. My friends and I didn't even bother watching the lottery and only found out they'd won when the Cubs broadcasters congratulated them on air.
My point is, they deserve absolutely no credit for getting Rose. Give them a little for effectively building a team around him in 2010 before it went to hell 2 years later.
The list of “lucky” GMs is endless.
The Bulls has Rose. They were building a strong club that may have been attractive to free agents. He went down. It’s been a continuing rebuild ever since.
I disliked that Bulls team but it was all in good competitive fun. When they eliminated the Pistons in '91, it drove a stake through my heart. But I have moved on and have nothing but respect for the the run they had throughout the 90's. I no longer follow the NBA...my feeling is that money and the NBA superstar idolization has ruined the team game. Of course I could be wrong. But I am enjoying this series.
They are really trying to squeeze a lot in. I found the Rodman episode a little odd in that they set up the Pistons as enemies but only dealt with his transition from foe to friend in a line or two.
I had forgotten how charismatic Jordan was back then, as he has avoided the spotlight for so long.
Jordan could be and is in his life. I understand that generating motivation for his level of excellence sometimes results in exaggerating the level that people are against you but Jordan takes it to a really negative place and often.
One of the funnier moments in the documentary is when Jordan says that Scottie Pippen delaying his surgery prior to the 97/98 season was "selfish" and left Michael "to carry the team" early in that season. Gosh Michael, was it as selfish as leaving the team entirely to pursue a baseball career for 1.5 years thereby breaking up a dynasty that had just won 3 consecutive titles? I don't remember Pippen or Horace complaining about that when they lost to the Knicks in the conference finals on a bogus call.
Whether its his treatment of Isaiah in eliminating him for the Dream Team, inviting his high school coach to his hall of fame induction speech only so he could embarrass him, or shunning Charles Barkley because Charles had the temerity to say that Michael was not successful as an owner, Michael seems petty and someone who is unwilling to forgive anyone.
I love him as a player and, as a Bulls fan, enjoyed the joy he brought the city I have chosen to live in but I also recognize that Michael is a grudge holder and sometimes comes off as a vindictive and unforgiving figure. The documentary has only accentuated that side of him.
That Jordan switched to baseball in order to serve a very, very quiet NBA suspension for gambling? That’s what I’ve always believed.
Literally could’ve been a result of a 1-on-1 Stern/Jordan meeting that resulted in serving all purposes.
the whole team were extremely sympathetic to Scottie for that joke of a contract. And look what they did to Kukoc in the Olympics. Reinsdorf insistence on not re-negotiating any contract, ever, was unjustifiable. And Krause ... don’t get me started on that putz. What a small man.
But if you’re in, Scottie, you have to be in.
I don’t see why it’s petty to say if you compare me to Clyde, or tell me how good a defender X is, then I’ll prove you wrong. I don’t know what he’s doing in the footage that is petty.
And as for the Scottie Migraine comment, he was mad at the headache, not Scottie. He knew how much Scottie had done to get them to that point. Someone can be mad at a situation like that.
On a 3 time champion Bulls team and pursue baseball? Seems like your standard for Pippen and Jordan are different when Jordan was much less “all in” on the team and completely quit in the middle of what could have been the greatest run in the sports history outside of the Bill Russell Boston Celtics.
I did not mention any of the other examples you post as an example of Jordan’s pettiness so I don’t know what point you are making. In terms of his treatment of Isaiah, his hall of fame speech (which was embarrassing at the time as Jordan used portions of it to settle old scores instead of celebrate a lifetime of elite achievement in the court) and in his treatment of a supposed friend in Barkley point to someone who unnecessarily holds grudges and has streaks of pettiness.
in, half out.
I remember Jordan’s HOF speech live, and thought it was odd. Mostly because I didn’t know what he was talking about.
I’ve watched it twice more in the last 2 months. I don’t think it was petty. Krause deserved what he got. I don’t think he was being mean to anyone else.
He didn’t retire just to play baseball on a whim. He was tired of the media blitz continuously pushing the gambling angle and than his dad was murdered. A little different than getting a surgery late to make a point about a contract.
was caused by MJ himself with the bravado around all of the gambling and leaving his team to go to Atlantic City to gamble being down 2-0 to the Knicks. His father dying obviously played a factor but not enough of one to stop playing sports altogether. Is that selfish?
Look, I know some people want their heroes to be without warts. I said in the first post that I love Jordan and all he did for the city of Chicago. I recognize him as the greatest player of my generation, and even though I like Magic more, its not a close in my opinion and I will rely on Magic's own words "Michael Jordan is the most talented player I have ever seen...by far."
Having said that, there are moments where Michael's insatiable need to be right and invent boogeymen who are against him have made him seem petty and bitter. Go see his hall of fame speech...it's bizarre. Who uses that moment to settle old scores from high school? Scores that no one in their right mind would say that you lost? Michael seems to be comfortable calling out everyone's warts but his own. He lacks a fundamental empathy in certain situations. I feel the documentary has shown that side of him.
I guess I don't know what people are arguing? That Scottie is more selfish than Michael? Uh, ok. There is evidence of that (1.4 seconds is all I have to say) but I also think the original argument that Michael seems like an eternal petty grudge holder is also true.
As you say, he was an ass sometimes. He was also petty, and held grudges for years.
is jarring at times but could well be the product of hurried and distanced editing, and I absolutely love it. Eight episodes is too few.
I think they’ve done a good job of weaving different narratives of the 97-98 season with how the Bulls/MJ got to be that cultural phenomenon.
more.
I also understand why the Bulls let Grant go, given the enmity from Jordan Rules and Kraus's constant forward looking. Grant was a star to me as a kid because of his association with that team. I was surprised to see that Jordan's first year out was his only all-star season. And the deal he got from the Magic was pretty crazy, though understandable to make a push while they still had Shaq and Penny.
when Jordan finally came back. Jordan was obviously not 100% but even with a normal Jordan they might still have lost. They were pretty weak in the front court. No rebounding outside of Jordan and Pippen. Thats why Rodman coming over was so important for them the following year.
I see 30 minutes from Foster and Blount, amounting to only 6.7 boards and 9 points. That was certainly a notably weaker team even with Jordan than the championship teams.
I was too busy paying attention to the Rockets in those years. I remember Pippen complaining about not taking the last shot in crunch time, so I didn't realize how much playing time he got alongside Kukoc based on the minutes.
titles in 94 and 95 regardless. In addition to the Rockets just generally being a bad match up for the Bulls (1-5 versus Rockets during their first three-peat), the 93/94 and 94/95 Bulls without Rodman were pretty weak in the front court.
I would have liked their chances versus any team, including Houston without Drexler.
Now the 94-95 team, yeah that's a different story with Kukoc playing big minutes at the 4.
The Bulls and the Rockets had the same regular season record in 94-95.
Both of them added "really good 2 guards" to make them much better than their record. Drexler was not rusty and he more size/depth around him than Jordan.
They won the title from a #6 seed in the Western Conference. They were the road team in every series - Utah, Phoenix, San Antonio, and then Orlando.
They threw tremendous amounts of shade, too, which was kind of out of character for Rudy T and Olajuwon. Who can forget pissing off the Suns so much that Danny Ainge bounced an inbounds off of Mario Elie's face? [ETA: that was actually the year before] Or the San Antonio series, where Olajuwon removed all doubt regarding his status in the big man pantheon by dominating (and that might be too gentle of a description) David Robinson? And my personal favorite, when the Rockets blared "It's a Small World, After All" as the theme music during Orlando's introduction at the Summit in game 3. The look on Shaq's face was priceless - It was clear that the series ended right there.
Like others have said, the Rockets were a terrible matchup for the Bulls during the first 3 titles. However, while the Rockets beat better teams on the way to the finals than the Bulls did (the West was really strong by then), a Jordan-led Bulls team on a mission was a very different finals matchup from either Ewing's choking Knicks or the really green Magic team led by Shaq and Penny.
I can't say that the Rockets would have won both titles going away, but the perception that Houston's titles are somehow tainted because Jordan was away is grossly unfair to a couple of really good Rockets teams.
* One of the funnier realizations from typing this is that while Kenny Smith gets a bunch of good natured ribbing from Chuck and Shaq on the Inside the NBA set, Smith's Rockets beat both Barkley's Suns and Shaq's Magic on the way to 2 titles.
no matter what version of MJ they had.
Like you said, just a horrible matchup in the frontcourt but it was also a shooting mismatch from 3.
People forget that Bulls team was 33-31 when MJ came back.
But I think the Dream Team doc you reference is still my favorite. I loved when they interviewed Pippen and Jordan about Kukoc.
"We wanted to guard him on the bench."
I have thoroughly enjoyed every moment on the series. Introducing a younger generation to that era of the NBA has been fun, too.
has been brought up in a couple of episodes.
IMO I always felt like Thomas talked a big game because he had enforcers to back him up.
I also remember his kissy face with Magic in an All-Star game and then he went ahead with a cheap shot on him in that same game. He led the freeze out of Jordan in 1985- forgot about that. Also, the ringleader of them walking off the court after being swept by the Bulls and being part of the cheap shots in that game 4. I still remember an article by a Chicago sports writer about the Bulls taking out the trash with the sweep.
Yeah- I can see why the other guys did not want him on the team.
I laugh in these comments about Bird being at the end of his career, because Thomas was close to the end as well. Now Mullin over Wilkins, I still don't get that.
The Seinfeld appearance in The Last Dance was gold.
He may actually be more arrogant, and in a less charming way, than Jordan.
he had met Jordan before in a GQ photo shoot. He seemed a bit star struck, but he was trying to be real/humble without forcing jokes.
I enjoyed "Hi Phil" and his comment as he left the locker room.
Still remember all his stand up on the Tonight Show- could never imagine his career blowing up the way it did.
was coming off a ruptured Achilles.
And he probably was the last guy picked on the team. Pretty amazing. I assume he took Isiah’s spot
Was that because the my weren’t counting on Larry but were saving him a spot?
Im sure Bird being hurt had something with it. GG is right, Mullin was picked with the first 10 guys and Drexler was the last pro guy picked 8 months later. 8 of those first 10 guys (not Stockton or Bird) started the All Star game that year. Isiah and Drexler were the other 2 starters
Tall, great shooter, good enough defender. He tied for the lead in team rebounding!
I grew up in Chicago in the '90s so it's a hell of a trip down memory lane for me personally, but personal sentiment aside I think it's been fantastic. The Dream Team scrimmage that you pointed out was awesome to see - I've heard references to the Monte Carlo scrimmage for two decades but Sunday was the first I've ever seen any footage of it.
They go over the scrimmage as well. NBA tv shows it every once in a while if you have that channel. I’m not sure if you can stream it anywhere like YouTube, but if you enjoy 80s and 90s basketball, it’s a must see