I noticed a rather dismissive comment about WI on the next page. I think it should be noted that WI has had a fair amount of success against tOSU, MI, PSU, and MSU in recent years, as well as upsetting LSU a few years ago. And, Iowa usually is not a walk in the park.
Admittedly, the B10 has its share of weak teams, and opponents selected from outside the conference usually are not a threat to the better teams. But, in recent years, the same has been true of the ACC, PAC12, and Big12. The SEC is similar to the B10, typically having 5-6 quality teams. However, only T&M and Auburn recently have scheduled opponents from other Power 5 conferences.
ND’s schedules during Kelly’s tenure have hardly been daunting either. Last year’s 12-0 record was aided greatly by a list of opponents that turned out to be unexpectedly weak – MI, SC, and Stanford and VaTech historically so. Still, the Irish managed to make several games far more difficult than necessary. It was enough to get into the playoffs, but not a remotely happy ending. At the moment, it appears the sole opponent of note for this year will be GA.
So, I don’t think Wisconsin’s schedule is less challenging than ND’s. Some years theirs is, some years ND’s is. And, I am not at all certain that ND would perform consistently well if it were a member of the B10. Even if ND were in the weaker West Division, it would have to play WI, IA, NW, and NE every year along with the possibly of playing tOSU, MI, MSU, and PSU also. An SEC type of schedule, one that would include out of conference opponents like BG, NMU, NV, Ball State, etc.
What distinguishes WI is the quality of its coaching staff and how well they recruit and develop underappreciated players. As noted elsewhere, it has no 5* recruits and few 4*s. Most of their recruits were rated 3* coming out of high school, with a number not even rated. Relative to ND’s recruiting classes, supposedly much less potential talent. Yet, they consistently are a pain in the ass for the major powers in the B10, frequently derailing someone else’s bowl fantasies. Its approach strikes me as similar to that of the NE Patriots - a system for which they have a clear idea of the types of players that will maximize outcomes. Not a lot of all-stars, just players who will work hard and are able to execute well-crafted game plans.
It is unclear how well larger numbers of 4* and 5* recruits would fit Wisconsin's system. Unfortunately, the answer to that question for the one of Kelly et. al. is painfully obvious.
I'm not sure if it's my comment you're referring to or not; but as tends to be the case with teams other than our own, the highs seem to get remembered while the lows get missed.
Wisconsin's record by opponent since Bielema left:
Ohio St. 0-4
Michigan 2-2 (we're 2-1 in the same timeframe)
Penn St. 0-3
Michigan St. 1-0 (we're 2-1 in the same timeframe)
They're also just 3-3 against Northwestern in that time and have lost seven games to unranked teams in seven seasons.
I understand the appeal of Chryst or other coaches from Wisconsin. They run a system far better suited to our recruiting base than we do. They also have achieved similar levels of success as we have with less highly regarded recruits. It's important to consider all the facts when considering coaches though, and I don't think that is being done by those championing Wisconsin.
Living here in MadTown..I'm not convinced just yet about anything other than Taylor being really good. Not sold on QB, I think OSU handles them in Columbus. Last year was awful. They really crapped away some games. Minnesota on road to finish will be hard, as will road trip to Nebraska.
to win by four (4) points, outscoring Illinois 15-3 in the 4th quarter. This is the same Illinois team that lost to Eastern Michigan. That Nebraska game shouldn't be hard unless it's Scott Frost's Super Bowl.
Nebraska will give Wisconsin a game, I don't think Nebraska will win but I want to see Wisconsin play a team with a pulse on the road.
They still haven't played a team with a pulse at all. Michigan really sucks, especially on the road.
ccfond
We only have to wait about a year to find out
...BK's exceptional head coaching? We've played them close because of exceptional performance of players, but not because of exceptional coaching.
I'd say there was very good coaching, but it was on the defensive side of the ball.
In 3Q. Stoic folded-arms response to GA halftime adjustments was hardly an adequate counter. Nor was constant complaining to officials.
That we got from cameras as it doesn't tell everything but it did scream "acceptance" didn't it.
Georgia would have absolutely blown Wisconsin's doors off in the same environment.
Please stop comparing ND to Wisconsin. It's not comparable. Wisconsin does a fine job within the parameters of Wisconsin and the Big Ten.
I just heard local sports talk in Milwaukee discuss their ceiling right before posting this. They see 11-1 as the absolute ceiling and are aware that the Penn State and Iowa games are also difficult, so 10-2 seems more likely. Before the Michigan game, FEI projected three losses as the mostly likely scenario. These talk-show hosts were realistic about things for Wisconsin because they saw a disinterested and uninspiring Michigan team.
Wisconsin, PSU, and Auburn are the only ones where the coach has a more "traditional" background working their way up from coordinator to a smaller (Wisconsin is likely on a similar tier to Pitt in theory, but in practice has been far more consistent) HC role before getting a top job, yet all have found ways to win so far. As others have mentioned, many of them have brought in proven assistants too, whether during turnover (Saban), turmoil (Dabo), or to complement their own youth (Riley, Day)
-ND: Kelly had the traditional progression between GVSU, CMU, and Cincy, but was not a coordinator. As discussed previously here, there seems to be some reliance on bringing in old colleagues, although guys like Hiestand and Elko/Lea from outside the core network were a pleasant surprise
-Alabama: Saban is one of the all-time greats and nearly fits the traditional model perfectly between MSU, LSU, and Alabama, but had that bizarre stop with the Dolphins and Mal Moore's brilliant sales pitch. Other than that, it's been a Belicheck-ian run, and they seem to turnover both assistant coaches and great talent yet keep winning.
-Clemson: Dabo has clearly catapulted both himself and the program into elite status, but was also a position coach/recruiter when hired, and was in fact on the ropes before turning it around. On the latter, he deserves credit for bringing in an elite DC in Venables after WVU scored about a thousand on them, and also brought in Morris as OC before the latter moved to what may be a good stepping stone at SMU.
-OSU: Day had a meteoric rise and was mentored by Meyer and Chip Kelly, but also never had been a HC before taking over. Weird circumstances to be sure, but unfortunately looks like he is keeping them on track. While a kid himself, he's brought in veteran assistants like Mattison, Larry Johnson, and Kevin Wilson.
-UGA: Smart has a great background, but also made the DC -> HC jump to an elite program without the quick pit stop at a Vandy, Duke, etc.
-OU: Riley seems very similar to Day at OSU - meteoric rise, strong offensive mind, mentored by quality coaches in Stoops and Leach, weird circumstances (albeit a surprise retirement vs. chaos), but also straight from OC to HC, and thus far looks to be doing a very good job. Also like Day, a veteran coaching staff with guys like Ruffin McNeill, Alex Grinch, Bill Bedenbaugh, and apparently both the younger Gundy brother and Frank Beamer's son (going back to the idea of building networks).
-LSU: Orgeron does check off the Ole Miss -> LSU path, but is such a unique character I don't think he fits any mold. He had interim jobs at both USC and LSU before winning the full time job at the latter, and brought in one of the most highly regarded DC's in Aranda.
As it relates to ND, my biggest question would still be the Kelly/Long playcalling dynamic, and if we can ever commit to the power run game that unleashed Josh Adams onto an unsuspecting world. We are always going to recruit OL, TE, and QBs pretty well, and if we could commit to a decent run game and bring in a home run hitter (optimistic on Tyree), I think we could consistently be on the tier below Alabama/Clemson with most of the teams below plus perhaps UF and UT, although admittedly also behind UGA and OSU for pure talent within this tier.
because they have a chance to play for a conference championship.
And I am willing to bet they would have lost at Georgia. The only CFP finalist they have ever played they lost 59-0.
They're a fine team. They're set-up to win in that division of the Big Ten.
They are not in a better place than ND to compete with the truly elite teams of college football.
Did anyone truly think Michigan was going to win that game? Newsflash - Michigan isn't that good.
Top 5: 4-7.
Top 10: 8-23. (6-10: 4-16).
Full Set for your own perusal:
Top 5:
2016 Wisc vs #5 LSU - W 16-14 9/3/16
2016 #8 Wisc @ #4 UM - L 7-14 10/1/16
2016 #8 Wisc vs #2 tOSU - L 23-30 10/15/16
2015 #20 Wisc vs #3 Bama - L 17-35 9/5/15
2013 #23 Wisc @ #4 tOSU - L 24-31 9/28/13
2010 #18 Wisc vs #1 tOSU - W 31-18 10/16/10
2010 #4 Wisc vs #3 TCU - L 19-21 1/1/11 (Rose Bowl)
2007 Wisc @ #1 tOSU - L 17-38 11/3/07
2004 #10 Wisc @ #5 PU - W 20-17 10/16/04
2003 #23 Wisc vs #3 tOSU - W 17-10 10/11/03
2002 Wisc vs #4 tOSU - L 14-19 10/19/02
6-10:
2017 #3Wisc vs #8 tOSU - L 21-27 12/2/17 (BTC)
2016 #11 Wisc @ #8 MSU - W 30-6 9/24/16
2016 #11 Wisc vs #7 Neb - W 23-17 10/29/16
2016 #6 Wisc vs #8 PSU - L 31-38 12/3/16 (BTC)
2014 #11 Wisc vs #6 tOSU - L 0-59 12/6/14 (BTC)
2013 #19 Wisc vs #8 S.Carolina - L 24-34 1/1/14
2012 Wisc vs #6 tOSU - L 14-21 11/17/12
2012 Wisc vs #8 Stan - L 14-20 (Rose Bowl)
2011 #7 Wisc vs #8 Neb - W 48-17 10/1/11
2011 #9 Wisc vs #6 Ore - L 38-45 1/2/12 (Rose Bowl)
2009 Wisc @ #9 tOSU - L 13-31 10/10/09
2008 Wisc vs #6 PSU - L 7-48 10/11/08
2006 Wisc @ #6 UM - L 13-27 9/23/06
2005 #14 Wisc @ #10 PSU - L 14-35 11/5/05
2005 #21 Wisc vs #7 Aub - W 24-10 1/2/06 (Cap One Bowl)
2004 #16 Wisc vs #8 UGA - L 21-24 1/1/05 (Outback Bowl)
2002 Wisc @ #9 Iowa - L 3-20 11/2/02
2001 #22 Wisc @ #7 Ore - L 28-31 9/1/01
2000 #17 Wisc @ #9 UM - L 10-13 9/30/00
2000 #24 Wisc vs #8 tOSU - L 7-23 10/7/00
It’s not that anyone wants to perfectly emulate Wisconsin, people are asking how would the Wisconsin staff do with NDs advantages that don’t exist in Madison?
It’s the same question people asked when trying to translate winning the Big East to performance at ND 10 years ago.
It's probably in vain. If the Internet had existed in 1986 it would have been full of ND fans wondering, "Why are we using Minnesota as the model for our rebuild? Minnesota sux!"
if anything the service academies do more with less and I don’t see power 5 schools emulating (how did that turn out for georgia tech).
How did Bielema do in the SEC?
So you are saying if the Wisconsin staff had more talent on their roster they automatically would not stick with a power running offense? Yea, the switch Jimbo has made to the spread offense from the power run offense he had at Stanford has been a successful example to mirror.
Didn’t work for Brett at Arkansas when he had to play better teams more often.
Second, funny how Les Miles got run out of town for his inability to develop a quarterback at LSU despite having a far more successful program than Wisconsin. Same complaints with Gus Malzahn at Auburn.
Lastly and most bizarre, don’t understand the Stanford comment at all considering Harbaugh had the future #1 pick at QB at Stanford.
I get it, you want to run more. That’s fine. Using Wisconsin as some sort of goal for us is not.
Their player development and system are.
I know that everyone thinks the NFL is coming to college football and it's a passing world these days, but all of the past national champions from the past 10 years could run the ball. In fact, most have a pretty damn good balance. Having a great QB is important, and if all you can do is run, you'll have problems as well.
But if you think this is what is championship football looks like, I don't know what to tell you, other than the fact you haven't been watching championship football.
46 yards rushing on 14 attempts
275 yards passing on 47 attempts
Here is the box from the title game last year:
135 yards rushing on 31 attempts
347 yards passing on 32 attempts
148 yards rushing on 37 attempts
295 yards passing on 36 attempts
Here it is from the previous championship.
184 yards rushing on 39 attempts
187 yards passing on 32 attempts
133 yards rushing on 45 attempts
232 yards passing on 32 attempts
I'll let you in on a secret, if you keep going back, you keep seeing the same balance. Championship teams need to be able to run the ball. Period. That doesn't mean we need to run the wishbone, but what we're doing isn't working, at all. Wisconsin, like a lot of the championship caliber teams, can both run and pass when needed.
Of finesse and slow developing plays. ND had two high first round draft picks on the left side in 2017 and they were equally pathetic versus Georgia running the ball as they were on Saturday.
We all want to take our shots at the SEC but it is the best cfb conference and its not even close. Brett had a big ego and took the money. You have a shot to succeed in the SEC East and almost no shot in the West.
David Shaw stuck with the power game after jimbo and luck left. In those next 4 years with the great Kevin Hogan at QB he had three 11 win seasons and went 43-12.
Miles was run out of town because he was too conservative, but he also won a national championship with Matt Flynn. To compare the type of defensive speed his team was facing for 7-8 games per season to ND and Wisconsin is a major reach. Once again, he won a national championship at LSU and then Nick Saban arrived at Bama and changed completely the balance of power in that league.
which I said I can agree with. I don’t agree that Wisconsin or their offensive philosophy are our goals as its been proven that time and time again, balance wins. Wisconsin is not balanced.
They skew to the run, but a lot of that is because they are salting clock at the end of the game.
The last time they played for the Big N championship (losing to Urban and OSU in a damn good game)
238 yards passing on 41 attempts
60 yards rushing on 32 attempts
Following that, in the Orange Bowl against Miami (a game they won)
258 yards passing on 34 attempts
142 yards rushing on 44 attempts
Wisconsin is a ground based offense that can throw if they have to/need to, but at their core, they are a running team.
When they are winning the game, they tend to run more, because they are chewing up clock, but it's not totally accurate to say Wisconsin isn't balanced.
Hornibrook, when they went 13-1 in 2017, threw for over 2600 yards on over 300 attempts.
Is the goal really to be Wisconsin?