it's college football, if he's a halfway decent coach someone will take a flyer on him as an analyst and then continue to promote him through the ranks.
I was able to change a few more minds in person and get a few more people vaccinated, but I've come around a month and a half later. I can't argue with stupid any more and admit I was too optimistic in the following post.
That will somehow convince them to get vaccinated?
Doesn’t seem like a good formula to me for trying to change peoples’ minds
They have tried science, reason, carrots, anger, mandates, pleads. Nothing else has worked.
At some point enough is enough.
Its like dealing with my 6 year old when I tell her to pick up her clothes. I ask her nicely, she doesnt do it. I beg her, she doesnt do it. I tell her it helps out the family, she doesnt do it. I tell her other kids do it, she doesnt care. I offer her treats, she doesnt do it. I yell, she doesnt do it.
Now, I would never just give up and mock or shame her, but she is a child. She isnt an adult, supposedly a part of society.
I'd rather go with 'ostracized'. Making them look in from the outside while we enjoy life with one simple shot fixing things should do it.
then they will continue to be selfish assholes. Some will continue even after that. Culture has a long history in convincing even the most strident to conform, but there will always be outliers. If a single person takes the vaccination after being shamed then I consider it a win.
I don't have the patience to argue it anymore. It's probably just because I've gotten all those I care about to get it. I've just noticed at this point that I don't have much patience to discuss it rationally and logically anymore.
I lose hope after seeing clients die from Covid after telling me they refuse for little more reason than "I don't want to do what you're telling me I have to."
Edit: TAR, I don't envy you in your position at all. I wish you luck convincing your staff to get it.
People aren't going to listen anyway, so I might as well take my small scintilla of personal satisfaction in telling them they're stupid brainless morons.
The guy is obviously too dumb to be a college football head coach.
Several of the posts below indicate that a notable number of doctors and nurses are refusing to be vaccinated at the cost of losing their jobs. One would think that if anyone would be aware of the value of being vaccinated, it would be those in the medical profession, particularly those who are actually with the Covid infected on a daily basis. So why the reluctance of some to receive the vaccine?
I can't wrap my head around this. Is there more risk to being vaccinated than is commonly known? Any thoughts?
Got him killed.
drug abusers, etc.
If you take 1 million of any profession (4 million if referring to nurses), there are going to be outliers no matter what variable you look at. I assure you that those doctors don't "know something" that everyone else somehow missed. Most doctors I know that don't want the vaccine it is because they already had COVID. The doctors and nurses that haven't had COVID, and haven't been vaccinated, are universally the ones that I wouldn't have wanted caring for a friend or family member long before COVID hit.
And is an anti-vaxer. Similar to your point with physicians, I would think that a guy who has spent his entire career analyzing numbers would be smart enough to figure that the odds of suffering some horrible side effect from the vaccine are infinitesimally smaller than contracting and dying from COVID.
But there you go. Smart people can be dumb, too.
And no, I would not let this guy do my taxes.
But of course they’re the ones who get attention.
the Hospice my wife works all found jobs in days. Some moved out of state. The article I linked down the thread discusses the shortage.
even abuse drugs. Can you believe it?
Please note that the more medically educated, the more likely to get the vaccine. That's why you see LPNs happily refusing vaccine, while almost all physicians have gotten it.
However, you'll always have a few radicalized in any population. Medicine is a stressful job and it affects mental health more than most jobs. Some doctors (and ER docs are over represented in this category) think they know better than everyone else. Doctors in general are very hard to get to agree on anything, so the fact that 90+% of doctors signed up for the vaccine is a stunning support of the vaccine.
Much lower than MDs, sadly.
The press has done a MAJOR disservice by featuring the very low percentage of people who are losing jobs because they refuse vaccination. MANDATES WORK!
“We ought to give [the vaccines] a try. I feel good about it. That’s all it is, just a feeling, you know”.
“What do you have to lose? People are saying that and then are taking it. If you’re a doctor or a nurse, a first responder, a medical person going into hospitals, they say taking it is good”.
Those are Biden’s comments about the vaccine, which shouldn’t inspire confidence in anyone. I wouldn’t be surprised if those on the frontlines aren’t taking his words to heart and don’t trust the process
Not sure if your post is irony flying over my head or something. But I can’t find anyone quoting Joe Biden saying those things.
But Trump did say those things about hydroxychloroquine in the spring of 2020.
I find it funny that the poster to who I responded has blamed everything and everyone across a few boards for vaccine hesitancy over the last 8 months except for one individual.
The vaccine is safe, effective, and the best way to return to normal lives. Some people are just selfish assholes.
Don't overthink it.
She may never recover and she was in the prime of her life. We're all vaccinated, but learning of this would've made us more reticent to trust the vaccine.
and that's more likely than having a severe vaccine reaction
For it’s not exactly selfish to avoid taking a safe and life saving vaccine.
The issue is a breakdown in trust in our medical and political institutions. A large number of people do not view these vaccines as safe and effective because they do not trust those in authority who say they are.
Share anti-vax memes and 'my body my choice' nonsense on social media end up begging for experimental and less-proven monoclonal antibody treatments when they're staring death in the face.
It couldn't be because of a sustained and mendacious media campaign by certain companies and individuals to serve a political agenda, right? Cause that would be crazy.
Shot compared to previous years. I don’t recall who it was, but I believe their employer was a large health system. It’s only one data point, but why would the number of people trying to get out of the flu shot go up so much? What changed? I can’t quite put my finger on it.
Don't forget AMERICA'S FRONTLINE DOCTORS.
There's also the grift.
He wouldn’t because he is gracious.
Because it would be pretty absurb if someone didn't trust the medical community's recommendations about a vaccine that prevents serious infection from a virus, but then contracted the same virus and ran to the nearest hospital to request life saving assistance from the same medical community. Wouldn't it?
If the vaccine hesitant don't trust modern medicine, could they at least be consistent about that mistrust?
Would they refuse the rabies vaccine and die a slow, agonizing death?
I don't understand the reluctance.
I only recently found out what death from rabies entails. Good lord, it is worse than a horror movie. I can't imagine there is a worse death out there- just some absolutely terrifying shit.
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/29/1041457232/rabies-illinois-man-death-rare-public-health
I have read that he was seeking a religious exemption but have not seen any details.
He never publicly explained his religious objections. June Jones, his former coach at Hawaii and friend, explained in an interview with USA Today that it basically boiled down to Rolovich not wanting to do what someone else told him to do.
The Church does not teach that anything revealed by God prohibits the use of this vaccine.
The Church does teach that an individual is obligated to follow the dictates of his well-formed conscience.
The Church does not teach that the conscientious decision to refuse a vaccine is impermissible, i.e., that it is not a conclusion reachable by a well-formed conscience.
So there is an opening here. I don't think it's the proper conscientious decision, and it is not by any means a required conclusion, but I can't point to an authoritative Church teaching that precludes it.
It's like (in a limited sense) private revelation. You're not technically obligated to believe that Mary appeared to St. Bernadette at Lourdes, but I'm going to look at you weird if you don't. This guy isn't obligated to believe that the vaccine is morally permissible to receive, but we can certainly look at him weird if he doesn't
concur with any requests for religious exemptions, and actually, it is your Christian duty for the good of your fellow mankind to be vaxxed.
but how could a Catholic ask for religious exemption if the Pope is saying you should take the vaccine?
priest, pastor, rabbi or other leader from an actual religion and also proof that you are a practicing member, to get a religious exemption as a gov worker.
You can't just claim "personal beliefs" or membership in a fly by night "Church of St Internet".
The couple of dozen of religious exemption applications we have received have all been rejected.
at a pretty high clip. I wonder if they have determined that being Catholic should not qualify an individual for exemption.
"As of Sept. 6, state agencies received requests for at least 3,891 religious exemptions and 892 medical exemptions, according to state data released Tuesday. Of those, 737 religious requests were granted — but accommodations were made for only seven workers."
By religious leaders and doctors alike, it seems warranted.
I say reject them unless you can provide that the person actually goes to that church or has a longer than email length relationship with that pastor. Hell, the example of the guy in the article admitted he didn't belong to a specific denomination! I fail to see how someone who can't even commit to denomination can say they have a "closely held belief" that is longer than a news cycle.
This is a public health emergency, these things should be highly scrutinized.
That's the dumb part of this for me, even if he was given a religious exemption (we don't know if his was granted or rejected), he wouldn't have been able to perform the duties of his job given the required accommodations under the Washington order (remote work until the pandemic is over).
To my mind, there are only two possible explanations for Rolo's seeking out the religious exemption:
1) his attorney has assured him they'll win on an appeal on this (no idea on the status of the law on this, but I would think it unlikely the 9th circuit would support him) or
2) he's willing to portray himself as a martyr on this.
"The exemption was provisionally approved by a committee that conducts blind reviews — without knowing the applicant’s name or department. But then it was up to Chun, in consultation with human resources and environmental health and safety department officials, to determine whether the coach could perform his job duties without posing a danger to the public. Chun said Rolovich’s request for an accommodation had been denied, without elaborating."
and this presents a win/win situation for both him and Wazoo.
It's just a weird situation.
he doesn't get any of his salary.
haggle, argue, get a settlement.
Quasi
Saw some Twitter vids of WA state cops "dropping the mic" and feeling smug, good to know they're gone too.
These vaccine mandates are great, shows who the uneducated assholes are and gets them out of the way.
If you don't want to pull your oar and keep the ship going in the right direction, then over the side you go.
Can't get a job cause you're not vaxxed? Seems like there's an easy fix there.
Lost your job because you refused to get vaxxed? There's only one person to blame there.
If these folks wish to be special snowflakes and not get vaxxed, then society will move on without them. They aren't needed.
Time has come to fish or cut bait. put a time line on free gov't pais vaccines. Delta has the right idea.
Where is the compassion of the anti-vaxxers who refuses to protect me and mine?
If I owned a small business I'd pay for all employees who wanted one to get the vax, and fire anyone who refused on the spot for cause.
This isn't difficult.
Lose a job because you refuse to shower? Seems like there's only one person to blame.
Wouldn't call that a lack of compassion.
Uh oh, you better watch your back.
You being a dick is the problem.
But I have to chuckle at you calling someone else smug.
With your statement below about 100% refusing to interact with a nurse who isn't vaxxed. This has been discussed many times on this board, but I'll never understand those who are vaccinated caring at all the vaccine status of others that they interact with.
Wow.
I'm not policing anything. Not sure how you read that into my comment.
He's free to parent however he likes. He added the information about premie twins in response. That certainly adds a different and unique element. And while I still might not necessarily agree, I certainly don't begrudge him from doing what he believes is in the best interest of his family and kids.
he spent five nights in the hospital for some trivial reason?
Just cause my three kids are still currently alive doesn't mean I'm a good parent.
I'm sure you're a good dad, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
I'm just stunned by the hypocrisy of someone calling you out for caring about the vaccinated status of people who interact *with your children* -- especially since he obviously cares that you care.
So it's not cool to care about others' status, but it is cool to care about whether others care? It's bad to be a busybody but good to be a metabusybody?
-vaccines are not 100%
-more people without vaccine allow the virus to continue to live on and perhaps morph into something worse, see Delta variant
-vaccine effectiveness may not last as long as we would like
-plenty of people are unable to get the vaccine for a variety of reasons
im sure there are a few others reasons.
This black/ white thinking is pervasive, but I would hope that higher education can help prevent it.
I'm not letting an unvaccinated person come within shouting distance of my preemie twins.
This includes my BIL who thinks CoVid is a gov't hoax.
We were informed ahead of delivery that there was a 100% vaccination rate amongst the staff at the hospital we chose (the whole staff, not just the nurses). That put our minds at ease greatly. They gave vaccines to staff for free and time off to recover if needed.
I do care about the vax status of others, as they may still carry the virus and my kids may be exposed. But knowing that they're all vaxxed means the chances, are far, far lower.
You're being disingenuous.
medicine well enough to trust, or understand the value of, a vaccine that has gone through the most rigorous trials and subsequent monitoring ever?
Clear out the dumb wood.
and some of the rural hospitals are closing certain units (notably mom/baby and labor and delivery) due to nurse shortages.
Which is why they all should just get vaccinated to prevent the issue.
Those that are helping the most vulnerable among us should be the first to get vaccinated, so they don't further hurt their patients.
In other words, they have the exact same (studies actually show stronger) immunity that a vaccinated person has.
Do people take cancer drugs when they don't have cancer? No. Do people that already had chicken pox get vaccinated for it? No. Why? Because they are already immune.
You can still be capable of producing them and not have any in your system.
Know what's easier than trying to figure that out? Getting a free vaccine.
Manufacturing and logistics employees who are critical to getting out of the current supply chain crisis that we have been dealing with for months while it has been ignored by our so called leaders. Forcing federal contractors and all companies >100 employees is not going to produce the intended result.
I’m sure there will be more people like the WSU coach. When I read about nurses in NYC threatening to quit en masse, where are they planning to work? Are all of them hoping to find something in health care that doesn’t require the shot?
Same for logistics and manufacturing and any other industry. If people are really so against the vaccine that they’d rather retire than get it, fine by me.
The government. But there is nobody to replace them.
The economy will suffer further.
I thought the extended pandemic assistance ended in almost every state a month or so back. I don’t think it’ll be around in December, unless some local and state governments decide to do that individually.
I had thought that once those programs ended the labor shortage would resolve itself. That’s what I was told.
Get worse
As a group, they are already absorbing more than their share of government resources and harming the economy because they keep contracting, spreading, and dying of Covid.
Maybe the vaccine mandate will get a lot of them off the government “teat.” We can’t let them keep draining government resources just because they would prefer not to do their part to end the pandemic.
They will lose their jobs in December due to the federal mandate.
I will not be able to replace many of them or their skills.
The company and my plant will suffer.
None of these folks are the ones sucking at the government teat. They haven’t missed a day of work for Covid or abused our generous covid pay/attendance policy.
They’ve come to work and worn their masks and done their jobs.
We will reward them for this with a pink slip.
Have you tried offering free shots and a financial bonus for getting it?
If that doesn't work, your 1/3 might not be the brightest bulbs on the tree.
Unless your business is different from every other place in the country with mandates.
Because why your place would be different from places like Tyson Foods would be intriguing.
That's 91% of 120,000 people vaccinated per the link below.
And Tyson got to that level by firing people I’m sure.
Which is in that article I linked. So they haven't fired anyone yet.
I'd love to know how your employees are different from just about every other group of employees in the United States.
If those people, and others like them, would have gotten the shot. And some/many of those people have surely contracted Covid and passed it on in a chain that caused others to become hospitalized or die, at great expense to American taxpayers.
So yes, those people are holding back the economy and driving us into more debt. I hope most of them have enough sense to get vaccinated rather than lose their jobs.
assertion?
I won’t go into yet again how it’s unresponsive to the discussion at hand.
Look it up for yourself, it’s not hard to do.
end. In the history of humans one and only one virus has ever been 100% eradicated -- smallpox. Why? Because every other virus survives in animals. Smallpox didn't.
Also, you are ignoring the very simple truth that vaccinated people are contracting covid and have been proven capable of spreading covid. Vaccinated people pass covid to other vaccinated people. A room filled with 100% vaccinated people can still spread covid within the room.
The only thing a vaccine does is lower the odds of hospitalization and death from contracting covid. They do not end the existence of covid. They don't end the spread of covid. They end the need to cower in fear over covid.
vaccinated were eight times less likely to become infected in the first place, and their viral loads came down more rapidly if they did get infected, which makes them contagious for a shorter period and less likely to spread the virus.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.16.21251535v3
The PANDEMIC would be over. Covid does not need to be eradicated for that to happen.
We don’t currently have pandemics in yellow fever, polio, Spanish flu, etc even though those diseases have not been eradicated.
to accept that we already are at the endemic level.
So I guess facts aren't your thing, but last time I checked, we have way more infections than last spring and are still not that far off the winter peaks. This thing is far far from "over."
Has your company asked why your unvaxxed workforce has not gotten the vaccine yet? What resources have you supplied them to help nudge them in that direction? Have you brought in doctors to educate them, offered them time off/bonuses for getting the shot, etc.?
If you've done all that to encourage vaccinations, and they still refuse, then they're not good employees or coworkers.
That's your decision to fire them.
See link. Federal contractor guidance is different than OSHA guidance.
Than you about. Because it isn’t like it’s affecting my livelihood.
It would certainly take some toll on HR, but it is absolutely an option in lieu of a pink slip.
The mandate for federal contractors applies as of 12/8 which means vaccines need to start going in as early as 10/27 depending on the make. There isn’t a testing option except for those who are able to get a religious or medical exemption.
Not comply?
…vaxxed counties in America, have a highly educated workforce, and are pretty much a 100% federal business.
We were at 80-90% vaxxed before the mandate at our main campus. I estimate we’ll lose 2-4% of our workforce over it.
I don’t envy the position you’re in. I have a facility in Florida that may have 3-5x the loss.
I work for a 100+ firm and we were fully vaxxed by the end of August.
What a stupid hill to die on.
The Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is developing a rule that will require all employers with 100 or more employees to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated or require any workers who remain unvaccinated to produce a negative test result on at least a weekly basis before coming to work. OSHA will issue an Emergency Temporary Standard (ETS) to implement this requirement. This requirement will impact over 80 million workers in private sector businesses with 100+ employees.
Contractor to the government. Not the osha rule.
sucking on the government tit. Problem solved.
They are a drop in the bucket of our total revenue and wouldn’t be missed.
But that isn’t my call.
I’m just the one left to pick up the pieces after my team gets decimated by a poorly conceived and executed mandate
Also a song by our own Surreal McCoys.
management. They are making the correct decision.
can get jobs instantly at any private practice. Private practices decide on their own whether or not to mandate vaccines.
between working as a nurse on a floor at a hospital and being a nurse working at a private practice clinic.
Welders, mechanics, machinists, electricians, assemblers.
If nobody can hire them due to federal mandates and osha rules they will not get jobs and will likely collect unemployment and then Welfare.
We will lose customers and stop selling certain products.
It’s a lose lose.
I assume other states will follow suit
Your points have merit -- but aren't the basis for this thread's discussion. Capitalism will ultimately solve the problem you describe. Mandates are happening in places and companies. People are leaving those states and the companies enforcing them are losing people. At some point those companies will either die or refuse to follow the mandates. At some point those states will die or the people within them will elect different people that change the policies.
We are already seeing it with green energy mandates. Boom. Within 8 months fuel prices are skyrocketing and driving inflation across all industries and products. Biden is now scrambling to try and convince our mortal enemies to produce more oil -- which they refused to do. Biden is now asking the US companies to produce more natural gas -- which he personally spent the first 8 months trying to block. Market realities are forcing him to change to some extent -- far faster than most expected.
Based on the Biden Administration's releases, it is fair to believe that OSHA will soon be issuing a rule requiring vaccines for all employers with 100+ employees. This will be regardless of industry or state.
If OSHA has the right to tell every employee what color their reflective vest must be and the minimum specs on a hardhat, then they have the right to require vaccines to protect workers.
Budget office.
And both the economy and our public health can move towards normal. Win/win.
If we truly wanted to get everything back to normal, the quickest path was for everyone able to get vaccinated.
vaccinated immunity. A very large part of the fight is people that are naturally immune refusing to be vaccinated for something they are 100% scientifically proven to be immune to already. It isn't a debate. Natural immunity is real, is as strong or stronger than vaccinated immunity and is long lasting (scientifically proven to last longer than the vaccines are to date -- natural immunity still exists for people recovered 18+ months ago, but vaccine starts fading after 6 months).
There is zero science behind ignoring natural immunity. Your argument is only valid for the pool of people not immune. Everyone should be proving immunity, not vaccination status.
Was he the guy who kept making scientific-sounding posts in spring 2020 about how Covid was going to kill less than 5,000 people and was being wildly overblown? Or am I thinking of someone else.
that was a different poster, but he said it was not as bad as H1N1 and would not be a big deal.
"100% scientifically proven to be immune" gives it away. Also, the rest of the bullshit, which is almost the entire post. No one ignores natural immunity, it has been discussed since the early "let it burn through" herd immunity debates. It's just that the people that insist upon it, like you, are the same people that have fought tooth and nail against every attempt to slow or reduce the harm caused by this pandemic every awful step of the way.
of people who have made up their mind to not get vaccinated. As such, the choice was not between “everyone get vaccinated” or not, but rather is
the hospital is willing to use unvaccinated nurses or not.
Vaccinations are often framed as a choice that reduces risk of harm for others around you. Does a hospital operating with a nurse shortage not increase the risk of harm for the sick? If you were in the hospital with COVID, would you prefer to be treated but an unvaccinated nurse or none at all?
I’d venture to say this particularly policy is pretty obviously awful. It maybe borders on evil. It will result in more tangible harm to people than is otherwise necessary. And it won’t be noticed by people who are so unbelievably fixated on vaccinations that they fail to recognize any error that takes another form.
even if they wanted to negotiate, they cannot.
and shifts the blame here to the policy adapted by the government.
right?
Your question is ridiculous. Of course a dying person would choose treatment over non-treatment when they already have the condition to which they would risk binge exposed. But would an otherwise perfectly healthy person with well-managed COPD want to go anywhere near a hospital full of unvaccinated doctors and nurses? Would any parent choose to bring a child into the world in a maternity ward packed with anti-vaxxers?
Your final paragraph is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this board is now dumber for having read it.
patients with covid in the hospital
Quite the catch 22 with an obvious solution
You, and many others in these replies, are absolutely hung up on “they should just get vaccinated!” Okay, you’re right. They should. Now, how do you make them?
This discussion is about a policy that does not intersect with “they should just get vaccinated”. This policy is something we can actually control: should we let unvaccinated nurses treat people? The answer should be aimed at what results in maximum care and minimum harm. Reasonable minds can disagree about what that is, but any discussion of “they should just get vaccinated” is irrelevant.
its not let the nurses just work so that you dont know who is vaccinated, has natural immunity, or is just "lucky". Im sure a cancer patient would love to play that covid roulette. Will the nurses wear something to separate the vaccinated from the "lucky" ones? Will patients get to chose? That will work well. /s
No the nurses need to get vaccinated for 2 reasons, one of which you clearly state. The ones who are "lucky" can still get covid and then spread it to numerous other people (including other medical professionals they work with), and thus continue this stupid covid circle jerk we live in. The other is it shouldnt be the fault of a patient, in dire need of medical attention, to also have to worry that he or she might get covid just from going to the hospital. Even if they are vaccinated themselves, why take the extra chance, especially if they fall in a category where death rate from covid is high.
Nurses should know better. The question is how do we get them away from the conspiracy shit that is preventing them from getting the vaccine.
Uh, terminate their employment for non-compliance?
That's the whole point of OP's thread.
Which is my entirely my point.
They won't be able to infect patients.
At least that is what the early numbers on mandates seem to suggest across other professional fields.
Putting aside one's opinions on whether a vaccine mandate is a proper policy for work or for a medical provider (I think it is proper for both and necessary for medical providers), it's important to note this was not the hospital's decision.
CMS has a rule that says a medical provider cannot receive federal Medicare or Medicaid funds (around 2/3 of the funding provided to my local hospital) unless they have a vaccine mandate and their employees have complied with the mandate. This is not a hospital system making this choice. It was a choice by the Biden administration imposed on the hospitals, clinics, and nursing homes.
Now, with that said, medical providers have an ethical obligation to make sure they are not getting their patients sick -- "First, do no harm." It has long been standard policy to require hospital employees to get the flu shot. My local hospital in the heart of Trump-loving rural Minnesota has had this policy for a number of years. I apologize for the bluntness on this, but you're out of your fucking mind for thinking that it is evil to require a medical provider to get vaccinated so they don't spread a wildly infectious and fatal disease to those at risk of getting sick. And I say that as a person who has defended trying to reason with anti-vaxxers rather than just calling them out for their foolish choices.
immunity. That's a true statement. It is evil to require someone to get vaccinated for something they are already immune to. The entire issue here is ignoring natural immunity. You are asking science professionals to ignore science by asking them to ignore natural immunity.
These exact same hospitals do not force people to take high blood pressure pills that don't have high blood pressure. They don't force people to take low dose aspirin daily to avoid heart attacks. They don't give cancer drugs to people that don't have cancer. They don't make everyone wear a knee brace to avoid knee injuries. They don't vaccinate someone for chicken pox that already had chicken pox.
The entire debate and policies would have a dramatically better outcome if it was focused on immunity -- proving you have it either via vaccination or naturally.
1. Again, the hospitals don't get to decide about the mandate. That's a federal policy enacted by CMS. Regardless of the creative solution you propose for these hospitals, they either comply or lose roughly 2/3 of their funding.
2. Please provide an example of a single vaccine mandate that allows for someone to opt out of because they can demonstrate they were previously infected. I've never heard of a school or university or hospital allowing people to opt out of a specific vaccine because they already had that disease.
I had pertussis in high school, but it doesn't mean I would get to opt out of a required DTAP booster if I were working for a hospital which required it.
3. Out of the many arguments I've heard against vaccine mandates is that it violates HIPAA for an employer to know basic medical information about their employees. Putting aside how that's a misreading or misunderstanding of HIPAA (it only applies to medical providers), wouldn't your proposed solution allowing for people to prove they have natural immunity require that the government have some big database of who has been sick with COVID?
All of a sudden the anti vax, my choice crowd, are getting very big on health databases, id cards, and very personal questions. Amazing how that is working out.
I was unaware of the federal policy underlying it.
I disagree with your third paragraph because I believe unvaccinated nurses are not a threat to sick patients (especially ones that already have Covid) and that this policy indeed results in more harm than otherwise. I lay out my reasoning in the post below
I have a client who has multiple myeloma (the cancer that Colin Powell had prior to his death) which is a cancer of white blood cells. She has the vax, but her treating physicians at the Mayo Clinic don't know that the vax will take with her given her severely weakened immune system.
Our law office visits require her to be double masked in N95s, our office staff to wear N95s, and it to be first thing in the morning so no one else has been in our office. She's at risk because she has no immune system right now following a stem cell transplant.
As others have pointed out, there are countless other reasons why someone could be at severe risk of getting COVID and dying even if they've been vaxed.
vaccinated nurses? I would think there’s already some type of separation between Covid positive patients and other types of patients that would make that manageable. Even if not, it remains the case that either the nurse has natural immunity or works in a very safe environment.
What your argument here has ignored is the nurse shortage. We are in a pandemic and a shortage of nurses is a serious issue.
First, I haven't ignored the shortage. Here is my post discussing its impacts on nursing homes and hospitals from 3 weeks ago.
Second, I'm on the board of a local hospital. I know first hand how the nurses/doctors/other medical staffmembers' decisions to not get the shot affects the hospital and patients. The statewide numbers I've seen reported indicate that a large number of staff are getting the shot, even if reluctantly, now that they have to.
Third, how can you admit we're in a pandemic which has killed 0.2% of the nation's population (not those who've gotten COVID, but 0.2% of the nation's total population) and argue that healthcare workers should be allowed to go into a hospital and see patients even if they haven't done the simplest thing to avoid getting patients sick? Why as a patient should I have to worry that my provider could get me sick even if I'm not at significant risk? Why should an anti-vax nurse or doctor ever be able to treat a patient again? Should the hospital and clinics have special wings for the non-vaxxed staff to be able to look at only the non-immune compromised under the age of 50 who aren't in frequent contact with those at risk?
It's been the highest quality response by far. I have to get back to work, but I'll respond to one last thing
> Why as a patient should I have to worry that my provider could get me sick even if I'm not at significant risk?
I don't think a patient does have to worry about this, as I've repeated several times. Why should a patient have to worry about no hospital bed being available? That seems to me a more significant concern.
If anyone's behavior is bordering on "evil", it's medical professionals who refuse vaccination or, worse, spread misinformation about the vaccines.
They have been trained in and work in an establishment that has an overwhelming consensus that the vaccines are safe and effective. They should have more than enough knowledge to understand them, and they have a duty to their patients to protect themselves, and by extension, their patients, as much as they can.
Do you really believe there is no possible harm done by an unvaccinated nurse contracting COVID and working for a few days to a couple of weeks with no symptoms?
So evil.
Unfortunately, the dire need for healthcare workers you correctly cite is because people (doctors, nurses, and others) are not getting vaccinated. A pox on all of them.
in which my wife was a patient and I slept on a couch in the room for 5 nights, I was glad to know that every single nurse we interacted with was vaccinated.
We would have 100% refused contact with an unvaxxed nurse, but never ran into that issue. Because we don't live in la la land, we live in Connecticut.
Seatbelt laws? Drunk driving laws? How about the vaccination requirements that have been in place for decades at public schools?
Bowing to this lunacy of the anti-vax crowd by not instituting mandates where they otherwise would be a no-brainer is silly. Evil? Come on. In my mind the evil pretty clearly comes from the side who brainwashed a decent chunk of this country into thinking a miraculous scientific and medical advancement that could save millions of lives is actually poison and that standing against it is some ridiculous freedom stand a la the Boston Tea Party.
And you don’t see that the policy should be focused on what results in the greatest care of the hospital’s patients. It should have nothing whatsoever to do with “bowing to the lunacy of the anti-vax crowd”.
Unvaccinated nurses are not a threat to sick patients. First, the patient likely already has Covid. The nurses that have been treating Covid patients for 18 months either already have had Covid (and thus have superior natural immunity) or have somehow been able to treat Covid patients for 18 months without catching it themselves. In the case of the latter, the previous procedures and policies (predating the vaccine mandate) must have already been extremely safe and effective.
If this policy is resulting in reduced care for the incredibly sick and vulnerable, which it almost certainly already has if the “nurse shortage” is true, then it is a tragedy.
1. Hospitals and medical facilities treat patients who are in for reasons other than covid.
2. You know what would result in increased care for the sick and vulnerable? Getting everyone in America vaccinated. Vaccine mandates have been shown to work so far, and are increasing rates as we speak. The net positive of the increase in vaccinations I think would safely outweigh the small percentage of nurses who are refusing and walking out.
3. Vaccine immunity is stronger than natural immunity. See link.
1) The 36% that tested positive but didn't acquire natural immunity -- they were false positives. They never actually had covid. The 74% that did acquire antibodies -- they actually had covid.
2) 13 months AFTER your linked article -- those 74% still have antibodies. The natural immunity remains 1+ years later. Those that were vaccinated... many now need booster shots. As of September 2020 -- the world didn't know vaccines faded so quickly and boosters would be needed. Now we know.
3) Linked are 81 studies that have been published since your 13 month old data that prove natural immunity is real
4) The linked article also correctly points out that everyone should be getting tested for immunity -- not vaccination status. You either are or aren't immune. Period. Independent of whether you got it artificially or naturally. Test for it and base everything off proven immunity via the test.
linking to that site.
Then you could say he is at least just ignorant, not willful.
I was just pointing out that this poster tends to make bold assertions but fails or refuses to provide any attribution for them.
It was last month, not 13 months ago.
The site you linked to is absolute bullshit anti-vax lunacy with no grounding in science or reality. It should not be allowed on this board.
1. Of course, but my argument about nurses not being a threat above still holds for any nurses who have had regular contact with Covid patients for the last 18 months.
2. This argument is immaterial to this discussion, as I posted about above.
3. Okay. Im not trying to get into an argument on that point. I think my point remains that they either have immunity or clearly work in an already safe environment.
you have nothing to do with setting any hospital's vaccine policy.
Laughable.
Such a simple solution, and yet...
My sympathies to the people who won't get treatment because medical professionals can't do the right thing.
describes our plight. My wife's a nurse at Lumina in Corvallis that is called. They lost their nursing mgr and three nurses who wouldn't get vaccinated. One retired, the other three found other jobs. They can't replace them so new dying community members can't get on hospice. Lumina and Evergreen, the two largest local hospices, are not taking new patients until the patient loads get balanced again. My wife's been very stressed and it's sad for the patients they turn away.
He was an interesting successor to Leach for this program. An offensive minded oddball who fit in well in rural Eastern Washington. I have learned of numerous people in the last couple days who care about their job and others lose their job because they do not view getting vaccinated as being in service of those exact principles. I will never get that.
Not everyone has to believe what you believe. I remember a day when liberals espoused that view.
“You’ve gotta respect everyone’s beliefs." No, you don’t. That’s what gets us in trouble. Look, you have to acknowledge everyone’s beliefs, and then you have to reserve the right to go: "That is fucking stupid. Are you kidding me?" I acknowledge that you believe that, that’s great, but I’m not going to respect it.”
Having a different belief on religion is 100% fine. Having a different belief on small/big government- totally fine.
Being an anti-vaxer is just plain stupid and harmful. It’s akin to saying “it’s ok to be racist, that’s your freedom to believe in what you want”. Some “beliefs” should not garner our respect or patience.
But not everyone has to believe what I believe.
opinion, not settled science. So we should respect opinions like "vanilla ice cream is awesome" or "the Yankees are awesome." Opinions like "vaccines are bad" are idiotic and dangerous and deserve to be ridiculed.
Or ignoring fact?
is coming from an area like San Francisco where people had different belief systems than I had; I always prided myself on being able to relate to and understand where someone was coming from, even if I didn't agree with them.
I have no idea where these anti-vaxxers are coming from. I'm mystified. I think that it might be the dumbest thing I've ever seen, and I can't relate to them at all.
they might not see benefit of vaccination. I'm not saying that is right, as there are externalities involved. But the personal risk of COVID to a twenty year old is pretty low.
It's a fact that the damage from COVID skews older. I think anyone over 50 that refuses the shot is insane. However, younger folks might assess risk a lot more differently.
Again, and I hate to have to say this, this is not an endorsement of that position.
Perhaps I'm in the wrong, but I've read in several places that the natural immunity from having the virus is now believed to be as strong or stronger than the vaccines.
If you're in a low risk group and you've already had it, why bother?
What I don't understand is why we are firing people who have had COVID but don't want to get the vaccine. That seems purely political to me.
It seems insane to be forcing vaccines on kids in general, but in particular kids who've already recovered and have naturally acquired immunity.
The CDC playing games with the definitions of vaccine and immunity certainly hasn't helped alleviate, even if just the perception, of playing politics.
I'm not certain what you're referring to there, so it's difficult to contemplate the line of debate.
But the CDC's own website used to say that a vaccine produced immunity to a particular disease. A month or so ago they changed it to say a vaccine is preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases.
There was also previously a line in their immunity types page that said something to the effect of how naturally acquired immunity, while not preferred, was generally more robust.
I get that that "science" can change, but the timing of it all really makes it seem suspect. I get that they want people to get vaccines, but whitewashing everything else certainly doesn't instill confidence.
I can see your point, but I think that the CDC was simply correcting the information on their website. Their original definition was, clearly, too cut and dried, even for other vaccines, like the flu vaccine. None are 100% effective.
The natural immunity claim may also be true for other vaccines but not COVID.
If you are looking for a reason to distrust the CDC, then yes, I see your point. I am not looking for reasons to distrust the CDC.
That doesn't make it true.
Natural immunity varies greatly person to person, depending on their immune system and amount of virus they were exposed to. A doctor JUST posted about it. Someone with natural immunity might be protected.
The vaccine's protection has been studied and documented. We KNOW the level of protection it provides, and we know they are protected.
They’ve been fed a conspiracy about government and “big pharma” that matched their preconceived beliefs about both government and medicine, and they’re eating it up.
There are a lot of people out there creating misinformation about the safety and efficacy of the vaccines, and those are the people I don’t understand. I’m sure there is a profit motive, I just don’t understand how it works.
Yesterday, a woman I went to high school with posted a meme the said the vaccine destroys your immune system, giving you AIDS. The comments made it clear that many people believed it.
I stayed out of that one.
Would not have contributed to the misinformation to score political points. And if the regulatory bodies would provide full authorization vs emergency use authorization, etc.
Politics with Covid and everything related to it from the start.
It should come as no surprise that now there is a segment of the population (and not just the evil trump voters) that don’t trust the government to be honest with them about the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.
Biden and Harris stated, before the vaccines had an EUA, that they wouldn’t take the vaccines at Trump’s say so, but would listed to the FDA and other experts. At the time, Trump was pressuring the FDA publicly and privately to approve the vaccine before the election. Even Pfizer released a statement saying that was not possible due to the timeline of the trial data, if I recall.
Pfizer has been fully approved for nearly two months now if that is really a concern for people. Moderna’s approval is imminent. That excuse doesn’t really fly anymore.
They blamed it on trump.
So you shouldn’t be surprised when people don’t trust the vaccine.
It’s not a stretch.
They blamed it on trump.
So you shouldn’t be surprised when people don’t trust the vaccine.
It’s not a stretch.
Harris: ""Well, I think that's going to be an issue for all of us. I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump. And it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he's talking about. I will not take his word for it. He wants us to inject bleach. I — no, I will not take his word."
Later:
"If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it."
She was, in fact, one of the first in line to take it.
Biden: “I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don’t trust Donald Trump, and at this moment, the American people can’t, either.”
He DID NOT say that he does not trust the vaccines and he, also, was among the first to receive it.
Edit: Link to Politifact with more quotes and more detail.
They wanted to score political points
If you are unable to distinguish "I don't trust what Trump says about vaccines" from "I don't trust vaccines", that is not the fault of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
The "political points" were important as to Trump undermining trust in the vaccine by attempting to rush authorizations before the election. Biden and Harris were calling for transparency in the approval process. No more, no less.
...to score political points?
I'm not sure what else you might be referring to, since you chose to provide absolutely no detail about your accusation.
Biden and Harris said exactly what I stated, and both were publicly vaccinated immediately after the vaccine became available.
“The process was rushed! Drugs normally take 10 years to get approval! This seems a little fishy to me”.
Whatever his decision is, it's none of my business.
infect you or members of your family with COVID?
allergies or someone like Colin Powell for example who had multiple myeloma which inhibits the vaccines ability to produce the desired antibodies. Not getting vaccinated is not a personal decision that doesn't affect others. It's depressing this still need to be pointed out.
I agree with this.
I'll also note that the vaccines haven't proven to be particularly effective at stopping the spread of COVID. You have places like Vermont with high vaccination rates and high case counts. A recent paper apparently found that: "Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States."
The paper's author isn't suggesting that people shouldn't take the vaccine. Neither am I. I am only pointing out that the idea that increased vaccination means lower case counts hasn't played out.
The vaccine has been very effective at providing most with a better quality of life and dare I say it freedom. The authors point is vaccine alone hasn’t stopped the virus totally, additional behavior change/societal restrictions would be helpful. Of course this will be twisted into vaccine is not effective.
...Yes, Vermont's daily case counts have "soared" compared to the period of mid-May to early August--from about 0 to 20 daily cases to 339 on October 16. Percentage-wise, it's a colossal increase. Aggregate-number-wise, it's a small number (not to downplay anyone's illness).
The population of Vermont is around 625,000. If 10% are unvaccinated that's about 62,500. If 300 people contract COVID out of that group (Vermont health authorities have been saying that most of the new cases are among the unvaccinated), then 0.5% of this subgroup is showing up each day, on average at this peak, with an infection. I don't see how this shows that vaccination isn't particularly effective at stopping the spread of COVID. If we assumed, in a hypothetical scenario, that 100% of the population of Vermont was unvaccinated and that the rate of 0.5% per day at peak held, that would be more like 3,000 new infections per day--not 300.
Now, setting my hypothetical aside, the paper you reference does say, I would hope, that the increases in COVID are related to the appearance of a new, more infectious variant; and of course, saying that vaccination hasn't reduced case counts ignores the very real possibility that the case counts under Delta would be higher without vaccines.
The key is to define what you mean by "lower case counts haven't played out." It's one thing to mean, lower than we saw before; but it's something else again to mean, lower than would be the case without the vaccines. I think you're saying the latter based on the evidence of the former, which is kind of an apples and oranges thing, especially due to the new variant coming along.
I'm thinking of the system of levees along the Mississippi River in Illinois. Someone could say, gee, it still floods, so what good are those levees? Well, without them, a lot of that land might be permanently inundated.
These are the type of statements that the dumber among us read and say, "The vaccine doesn't do anything to stop the spread of COVID." That's emphatically wrong. Increased vaccination has irrefutably led to lower case counts. The higher the number of vaccinated, the lower the spread would have been without those vaccinations.
However, there's enough seemingly random or not understood factors for patterns of spread to prevent one from concluding that state A will spread higher or lower than state B because the vaccination rate is, say 10-15 percent higher. But that really shouldn't be surprising. Looking at it state by state or country by country, the pattern of spread (which locations got soaked) has always been difficult to predict. When you have vaccination rates that are less than required for heard immunity, any state that gets hit with a wave is going to have spread and could have major spread.
Expecting a 15 percent comparative reduction in spread because a state has a comparatively 15 percent higher vaccination rate is not a reasonable expectation. That is doesn't play out that way is not a basis to falsely claim that the vaccine hasn't prevented the spread of COVID.
humoring him?
"I'm just pointing out..."
Should we "do our own research?"
Delta is that infectious, no where in the country is 95% immune. Note, this does not include just the vaccinated, it also includes people who had a severe enough infection to trigger the production of memory b & t cells, not everyone who contracts Covid does this and we don’t have a great way to measure it which is why you don’t see public health officials mentioning it but it’s probably at least a majority of people who contract Covid. Even though the numbers in NE are high right now I can tell you that it’s not overwhelming their hospitals (the news in NH just reported that one hospital had to divert for 4 hours) and they seem to be peaking. Hardly the catastrophe FL experienced a few months ago. Just because at this snapshot they are currently “the worst in the country” doesn’t mean much, especially since most other places besides the Midwest and NE have completed their delta surge while this area is at its peak or just past it.
The New England area has been realitively untouched by Covid due to their adoption of stricter protocols and it’s more rural population (it’s pretty much the only blue/purple rural area in the country.) Therefore they aren’t at 95% despite having a really good vaccination rate. The area that probably closest is California. While they have a slightly lower vaccination rate then New England they have suffered from a very large alpha and delta surge such that they are much much closer to that 95%. Their delta surge was already muted, with it peaking lower and lasting for less time then places like Florida. I would not be surprised to see California be realitively spared from further waves in the future. The rest of the country probably needs at least 2 more waves to get to that point, which is why public health officials are expecting Covid to become endemic by winter 2022. Between a few more waves and kids getting vaxxed we should hit 95% immunity by then.
I'm not looking to get into any COVID arguments and don't have time for further posts after this one. Conventional expert wisdom as recently as June was that 50% vaccination would stop spikes. That turned out to be wrong, whatever the reason. If the reason is that the infectivity of Delta wasn't appreciated, that's fine. Still means there is a lot of uncertainty and our predictions are uncertain.
I don't understand the claim that a correlation between vaccination and spread only shows up at 95%. There should be a correlation well before then. Some correlation at 50%, greater correlation at 75%, and so on.
Vermont has 90%+ of 12+ at least partially vaccinated and a record case count. Higher case counts than last year with no vaccination. It is certainly not my field, but per the study I linked, it seems as though there was no particular correlation found across many different places. Vermont isn't showing a slow of spread at 90%+, but will at 95%? Hard for me to see how that would be the case.
I'm glad Vermont and New England haven't had overwhelmed hospitals or the like. That's great.
I wish that vaccinations had halted spread. It would have been great if say a 50% vaccination rate pretty much muted cases. That was conventional wisdom as I understood it (at least so far as conventional wisdom is represented by Fauci). I'm just saying it hasn't played out as far as I am aware. If it hasn't started to play out at 50, 60, etc. percentages at any location, I'm not sure why it would play out at higher percentages.
I'm only talking cases and spread. There are other different and important metrics. More important metrics if we are talking about impact.
As stated above, I've got to go, so excuse me if I don't respond. I don't have anything in particular further to say anyway.
Seems like the thread went radioactive. Nobody is probably looking at it now and I'm not going to dig through it either.
Just providing a link as it seems my question my 50% number was questioned.
I'd call Fauci on CNN in June as representing conventional wisdom, but quibble with it as you like.
"Having about 50% of adults fully vaccinated and about 62% of adults having received at least one dose across the US as a whole means “as a nation, I feel fairly certain you’re not going to see the kind of surges we’ve seen in the past,” Fauci said, but added “what I am concerned about are those states in which the level of vaccination is low, that you may continue to see higher levels of cases as we get into the summer."”
Kids get infected just as much due to delta so you don’t just get to ignore 20% of the population anymore. We also can’t use first shot numbers either as delta has been shown to beat 1 shot of the mRNA vaccines. Vermont is 70.6% fully vaccinated, commendable but not 95%, Vermont is dead last in total number of cases of Covid from the start of the pandemic at only 5419 per 100k from the start of all of this, in contrast, North Dakota has had 18,566 cases per 100k.
To echo the response below, Delta changed everything.
The conventional wisdom you cited (which I recall as more like 70-75%) was before the Delta variant hit the US.
Because Delta is far more infectious than the previous variants, the vaccines are less effective.
Experts have been consistently pushing for 85%+ to get vaccinated to reduce the number of potential vectors as well as reservoirs.
Delta is at least 4x more infectious than alpha, and it children were much more susceptible to infection. Those under 12 appear to be reservoirs for the virus and until they are vaccinated at large number we will see continued spikes.
I suspect that the sources from which you read that "conventional wisdom" were doing so either to downplay the importance of further vaccination or setting up strawmen to downplay the effectiveness of vaccination. It sounds like something baseless that btd would trotted out there.
And there could be any number of reasons. For starters, use of the (at least one dose) number is designed to inflate the protection. That's a sign that one is not using honest argument and is trying to get a particular answer. It looks like 78.68 percent have one dose and 70.43 are fully vaccinated. There has been a push in the past few weeks of people getting their first doses who are not yet fully vaccinated.
Possible reasons:
Cherry picking data to a point in time. The last I looked at this issue last month, states with lower vaccination rates were clearly tending to be hit harder. It was predominantly a red state wave. Vermont still had a higher vaccination rate than average in June and July and there was virtually no spread. Given the 2-month wave trend that we've seen from this pandemic, we are naturally seeing those states coming down from peaks. And naturally some other states are rising, as we've seen throughout the pandemic. But it's folly to choose this particular time and conclude that this is the most instructive time to determine a relationship, given that the virus waves don't hit each region or state at the same time. To show the effect of the vaccine, you'd have to ask was Vermont doing better than other states during their valleys and during their peaks compared to other states.
Random variance. There will always be random variance. Outlier data is a normal part of random variance. You can't disprove a trend by pointing out one state's contrary data. Opportunity for variance is higher when looking at smaller state populations. A couple particularly effective webs of spread hit a bigger percentage of the population, whereas in a bigger state it would be a blip on the screen.
What are school rules like? Given the high vaccination rate and the low likelihood of serious health consequences for kids, are schools generally unmasked now? What are the precautions there? Could they be removing those precautions earlier than other states with lower vaccination rates? That would drive higher case counts among the unvaccinated.
What are other public rules like? Has the behavior of unvaccinated adults changed in response to loosening restrictions making them more likely to spread COVID than they were a few months ago.
$16 million for the year.
It doesn’t make him less of an idiot for giving up his contract money though. I’d be willing to bet he doesn’t end up forfeiting all of it.
“Think about how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of them are stupider than that.”
Kyrie Irving is a flat-earther. Only a fool respects that.